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Penguins @ Leafs - Nov. 3rd, 7:30pm - Amazon Prime

OldTimeHockey said:
If the team played at the 3rd period level, for even 75% of the games, they would be one of the top teams in the East.
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Wouldn't it be great if the coaching/GM built the team's playstyle more around the strengths of the roster rather than try and shoehorn them into a style which clearly negates pretty much any of their strengths. And hasn't for over a year, now. And isn't looking like actually getting any better, if it isn't actually getting worse.

Does anyone really think suppressing the abilities of the players in the name of "responsibility" is going to make the roster more likely to win a cup than playing to their strengths and hoping that a hot goalie, or even league average goalie performance can steal them a few games to tip the odd series from 3-4 to 4-3?

And sacrificing the enjoyment for the paying or viewing fan to the extent they can't be bothered watching dull, non winning hockey, instead of fun, possibly winning but at least they look like they're enjoying it hockey?
 
Well Leafs have now quietly won 4 of their past 5 games despite a number of key injuries/absences. No doubt basically everyone has another level to reach but good to see some points still being collected.
 
L K said:
Montreal (loss), New Jersey (win), Pittsburgh (win), LA (win), Rangers (loss), Lightning (win), Columbus (loss), St. Louis (loss), Boston (OTL), Winnipeg (win), Seattle (win), St. Louis (loss), Minnesota (OTL)

vs.

Montreal (win), Detroit (loss), Detroit (loss), Nashville (win), Rangers (win), Seattle (win), New Jersey (loss), Buffalo (loss), Buffalo (win), Calgary (win), Columbus (Loss), Philadelphia (win), Pittsburgh (win)

Honestly, the strength of schedule last year to this year isn't really all that different.
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I feel like this years is a lot easier? Last season 8 of those 13 were playoff teams. How many of these teams do you think are going to make the playoffs at the end of the season? I’d be hard pressed to say more than 3 of them.
 
Arn said:
Wouldn't it be great if the coaching/GM built the team's playstyle more around the strengths of the roster rather than try and shoehorn them into a style which clearly negates pretty much any of their strengths. And hasn't for over a year, now. And isn't looking like actually getting any better, if it isn't actually getting worse.

Does anyone really think suppressing the abilities of the players in the name of "responsibility" is going to make the roster more likely to win a cup than playing to their strengths and hoping that a hot goalie, or even league average goalie performance can steal them a few games to tip the odd series from 3-4 to 4-3?

And sacrificing the enjoyment for the paying or viewing fan to the extent they can't be bothered watching dull, non winning hockey, instead of fun, possibly winning but at least they look like they're enjoying it hockey?
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Just makes me laugh. Was Keefe hockey winning hockey?
 
GhostofPotvin29 said:
I think it could have been just as much as I think Berube’s can.
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Exactly this.

Especially if he'd had last season's goalies at any stage.

It was just as winning as this Berube stuff is, if not more so. And at least it was relatively entertaining too.

Keefe's time was up. Absolutely. A new voice was needed.

Berube's style is swinging too far the complete other way with a roster that isn't suited to it. And it feels like he's too stubborn to adjust his ways to what he has.

They'll probably partially figure it out. We'll have enough moments like last night where the players either are let off the leash a bit as in the third period, or even just snap themselves off it, to probably bumble into the playoffs with 10 minutes of play per game.

Though I genuinely wouldn't be surprised to be on the outside looking in this season.

At which stage we're about as likely % wise as any Keefe team ever was to winning rounds and cups imo. It probably depends as much if not mostly on Stolarz or Woll putting up a ~ .950 sv% for the duration of the playoffs as anything else.
 
Style, schmyle. It's just effort. They played on their heels to start the game, and they got two intermissions-worth of expletive-laden beratement. They had the puck more when they chased the puck better in coordination, rather than just hovering around it hoping for a bobble. They had the puck more when the defense was making easy short passes, instead of giving it to the other team and forcing themselves to dump it after getting swirled. Most of their 4 goals were exactly what Berube preaches once they started playing on their toes: forecheck, cause turnovers, pump it on net, follow it up.

Keefe-puck insulated them from having to play real defense and actually pursue pucks; but the roster needed a requisite skill level to sustain it, especially against harder defending teams. So they've got like 5 years of ingrained easy, methodical, 4D chess hockey to work out of some of their instincts. When you can build up a steady forecheck, then you open up options to carry the puck in when the openings arise.

This is on Matthews primarily. He's the leader in the dressing room and on the ice and in the media. Game shifted once he started to visibly show emotion and drive. His PK shift galvanized the team more than his cheeky goal did (perfectly executed NZ set faceoff play).
 
Bill_Berg said:
I liked that comeback, but it's the first time in their franchise history they've come back from a 3-0 third period deficit? That's a stat I thought I saw. True or not, they're a below 500 team playing two of three periods every night. Hopefully this is the TSN turning point on the season.
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Leafs came back down 0-3 in the 3rd against the Flyers in '08 (that's as far back as I went). It's just AI nonsense.

Edit: They've done it 3 other times:


Fri, Aug 7, 2020@ Columbus Blue Jackets 30-3, 3rd4-3

Tue, Mar 11, 2008vs Philadelphia Flyers30-3, 3rd4-3

Thu, Apr 9, 1936vs Detroit Red Wings 30-3, 3rd4-3
 
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GhostofPotvin29 said:
With all due respect this is nonsense.
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That was the intended design of Dubas and Keefe's playstyle. Breakout routinely, carry the puck through the blueline, work the perimeter for a seam play. They drafted accordingly with puck skill focus, to the point one of their player development coaches asked if maybe they wanted some people who could get the puck back.

In the latter half of their time with the Leafs, they started to shift off of that.
 
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dappleganger said:
Leafs comeback down 0-3 in the 3rd against the Flyers in '08 (that's as far back as I went). It's just AI nonsense.


Tue, Mar 11, 2008vs Philadelphia Flyers30-3, 3rd4-3
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lol maybe, but it wasn't from AI. I swear I saw it on the prime feed. Was that Flyers game won in OT maybe? It did seem unlikely considering just how old the team is really.
Edit: I see that Flyers game was won in OT. Maybe the stats was win in regulation starting the period down 3-0.
 
Bill_Berg said:
lol maybe, but it wasn't from AI. I swear I saw it on the prime feed. Was that Flyers game won in OT maybe? It did seem unlikely considering just how old the team is really.
Edit: I see that Flyers game was won in OT. Maybe the stats was win in regulation starting the period down 3-0.
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No, but the people on the prime feed were probably using AI to dig out that stat is my assumption.

I think you nailed it though, all the other 0-3, 3rd period comebacks were won in OT.
 
herman said:
That was the intended design of Dubas and Keefe's playstyle. Breakout routinely, carry the puck through the blueline, work the perimeter for a seam play. They drafted accordingly with puck skill focus, to the point one of their player development coaches asked if maybe they wanted some people who could get the puck back.

In the latter half of their time with the Leafs, they started to shift off of that.
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In their last 3 seasons with that GM/coach combo the Leafs were the 5th best overall team in takeaways/60. I don’t know where this narrative comes that they weren’t good at getting pucks back.
 
GhostofPotvin29 said:
In their last 3 seasons with that GM/coach combo the Leafs were the 5th best overall team in takeaways/60. I don’t know where this narrative comes that they weren’t good at getting pucks back.
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What I was saying isn't related to takeaways. The team takeaway prowess referenced was fueled by Matthews/Marner/Nylander primarily, who were 1st, 5th, 9th in raw takeaways for 2021-2024 time span at 5v5 in the whole league. Their takeaway prowess was a bonus benefit, adjunct to the puck skills they were drafted for.

I'm talking about where the front office and coaching focused and prioritized, which was play with the puck. The 'narrative' stems from Jack Han's question to Sheldon Keefe while with the Marlies about how all the upcoming players in the system were oriented around holding the puck, but they didn't really have anyone whose game was predicated on retrieving the puck off the forecheck or off the boards. This came to a head every playoffs when they were ill-equipped to handle situations where they were walled out of the slot or didn't have the puck (i.e. playoff hockey).
 
I don't really disagree with Berube's desire to shift this team to a more complete game. I think what you're seeing is the pendulum swinging hard in one direction. It will settle back towards the middle IMO.

The issues with the game we are seeing is lack of effort and give a sh*t. Not a system error. Some of that could very well be caused by players saying "you know what, fk this coach and his new culture". To be quite frank, if that's the case, fk those players.

Berube wants them to play hockey the "right way". Is it a little more boring? Sure. Is it a little less run and gun? Definitely. Is it the most likely path to success...most definitely. And if the players don't buy in, it's not the wrong system, it's the wrong players. That is all.
 
Arn said:
Exactly this.

Especially if he'd had last season's goalies at any stage.

It was just as winning as this Berube stuff is, if not more so. And at least it was relatively entertaining too.

Keefe's time was up. Absolutely. A new voice was needed.

Berube's style is swinging too far the complete other way with a roster that isn't suited to it. And it feels like he's too stubborn to adjust his ways to what he has.

They'll probably partially figure it out. We'll have enough moments like last night where the players either are let off the leash a bit as in the third period, or even just snap themselves off it, to probably bumble into the playoffs with 10 minutes of play per game.

Though I genuinely wouldn't be surprised to be on the outside looking in this season.

At which stage we're about as likely % wise as any Keefe team ever was to winning rounds and cups imo. It probably depends as much if not mostly on Stolarz or Woll putting up a ~ .950 sv% for the duration of the playoffs as anything else.
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There's so many things here that I disagree with that it's hard to keep this short, but I'll try.

The Leafs have done this every October for years. Edmonton is in the same group even with Knoblauch. Is it boring hockey? Absolutely. Could they be playing to their strengths a bit more? Probably. But I just see a team that is getting PDO'd on the PP and making questionable defensive decisions, and if we're going to say Keefe would've been better with better goaltending, well this team would be better with better goaltending also. Stolarz is 53rd in GS Above Expected. The fact is right now we don't really know what this team is and I think making grandiose statements is premature.

Funny how we're talking about the team like they can't score but they're actually a pretty high flying offense in terms of goals scored, and I can guarantee you Berube doesn't condone the defensive play he's seen.
 
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Bender said:
There's so many things here that I disagree with that it's hard to keep this short, but I'll try.

The Leafs have done this every October for years. Edmonton is in the same group even with Knoblauch. Is it boring hockey? Absolutely. Could they be playing to their strengths a bit more? Probably. But I just see a team that is getting PDO'd on the PP and making questionable defensive decisions, and if we're going to say Keefe would've been better with better goaltending, well this team would be better with better goaltending also. Stolarz is 53rd in GS Above Expected. The fact is right now we don't really know what this team is and I think making grandiose statements is premature.

Funny how we're talking about the team like they can't score but they're actually a pretty high flying offense in terms of goals scored, and I can guarantee you Berube doesn't condone the defensive play he's seen.
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I like disagreement, disagreement is good and I appreciate respectful discussion of disgreements 😀

I suppose I’m just mostly frustrated and I REALLY didn’t enjoy watching Berube hockey last season just purely from an entertainment perspective.

You make a fair point on better goaltending would have the record better this season. I probably would still not be as entertained. But winning more DOES kind of cover that.

As OTH says above I think the crux of my disillusionment is that we’ve swung so far from one style to another that the players are struggling with it.

OTH says screw the players if they can’t do it. That’s fair. I feel like we should just tweak it slightly to increase the contribution of the strengths they do have.

Maybe if they eventually get all the “boring” stuff down then it will evolve and allow them to show more of their individual brilliance as they get comfortable with it.

It’s just that it’s been over a year and it’s still pretty unwatchable imo.
 
We also need to keep in mind that the reason the Dubas/Keefe playstyle "doesn't work" is because of the BS refereeing the NHL allows to exist in the playoffs. For some inscrutable reason, they allow, even encourage, a brand of hockey that is more akin to organized muggings than skill-focused. It's horseshit up and down the line. Remember, when Dubas came in with Babs the model was the puck possession Wings Cup teams. You could put those squads on the ice today against Florida and they probably wouldn't win. But hey! Sam Bennett just elbowed Datsyuk out of the playoffs and that's REAL hockey.
 
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