Phaneuf To Sens

[rdowdall]

Maybe not a boat anchor, but a problem in a sense that the teams that could have offered a pick and prospect wouldn't have been able to fit him under the cap without moving a piece that they potentially wanted to keep.  Also there is the fear that the cap is going down or staying the same again next year.

Sure, but moving a piece you potentially want to keep goes hand in hand with acquiring a player of value. Again, I'm ok if this trade is saying that the "You know, Phaneuf would actually make a pretty good #2/great #3" people were if not wrong then at least out of step with NHL GM's but otherwise it's hard to read this trade as being particularly good.

I see your point, but I don't really think of it as being that bad of rip off.  I didn't hate Phanuef, and I largely agree with the premise that he was miscast in Toronto.  I think the best thing about this deal however is continuation of moving forward.  Perhaps they could have squeezed more out of another team, but I think that the Leafs got what they wanted, and most of the core that wasn't built to win is almost gone.

 

[Kin]

I think the salary cap sort of skews actual player on-ice value.

Sure, of course. But to this extent doesn't strike me as in line with what we've seen elsewhere, I don't think.

Look, when Kessel was traded I argued with the people who said it was a terrible return because if that's what the market was, that's what the market was. I'm perfectly fine to say the same thing here there's just an added touch of "Huh, that's where the market was?".

 

[Kin]

I see your point, but I don't really think of it as being that bad of rip off.  I didn't hate Phanuef, and I largely agree with the premise that he was miscast in Toronto.  I think the best thing about this deal however is continuation of moving forward.  Perhaps they could have squeezed more out of another team, but I think that the Leafs got what they wanted, and most of the core that wasn't built to win is almost gone.

What do you think I've said that indicates this trade is a "rip off"?

 

[cabber24]

Next captain? I was say no one right now but if I had to pick someone I would pick... Riley?

For now, how about Kadri?  Of course, we all know the boy from Markham is awaiting...

I said Reilly earlier but I changed my mind. I would give it to JVR if they had to give it out.

 

[rdowdall]

I was wondering if there was a player that you felt was comparable to Dion that got dealt over the last couple of years that set the sort of going rate that you were expecting for him.

Bouwmeester? It's a different term, obviously, but again it's hard for me to look at Phaneuf's term as being an outright negative.

No, but I think the perception is that Boumeester is a better d-man overall.  He got this from St. Louis:

Reto Berra, Mark Cundari and round 1 pick in the 2013 draft (Emile Poirier)

You have the 1st pick, which was 22nd overall, an undrafted prospect and a goalie taken in the 4th round.

 

[Omallley]

Yeah but you know as well as anyone term is the biggest factor. There's no value in carrying a guy who will hamstring you for years going forward. Polak doesn't carry the same commitment. That's what they're paying for, imo, less as much ability.

Which is fine, I guess, if the perception out there is that Phaneuf is so bad that if he were a free agent this year he'd be lucky to be fielding offers. I didn't really look at him that way. Would he get 5/35 as a UFA? No. But 5/27.5? 4/22? Those seem reasonable. So the idea that Phaneuf's contract was some sort of boat anchor doesn't entirely work for me.

Let me put it to you like this: I think you aren't too far off on Phaneuf's value as a UFA this offseason. The delta between those and today's Phaneuf is the equivalent of the Leafs taking on 7.5-13M in salary as part of that trade. Using the mid-point, would you feel like the Leafs got better value if they had received a low 1st and a better prospect while retaining $2M/year on his contract, compared to a mid-low 2nd, and Lindberg? I'm not sure it is...

EDIT: It would be very hard for the Leafs not to take on some salary coming back. Which, given their current situation comes off the books before they are likely to be contenders - so not as much impact.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Ian Mendes with an article detailing how the trade came together: http://www.tsn.ca/how-the-phaneuf-deal-got-done-1.435649

An interesting note there is that Milan Michalek almost ruined it as he was initially reluctant to waive his NTC.

 

[Kin]

No, but I think the perception is that Boumeester is a better d-man overall.

I think that's the perception now, sure, but at the time of being traded lots of people saw Bouwmeester in a similar light. Overpaid by a million or so and miscast as a #1.

You have the 1st pick, which was 22nd overall, an undrafted prospect and a goalie taken in the 4th round.

Sure, so a significantly better return without the garbage contracts thrown in and, again, working on the consideration that having less term isn't necessarily a good thing.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Glad the Leafs rid themselves of some sort of salary albatross.  What is surprising is that they actually traded with their division rvals, the Sens.  Normally, one doesn't bolster a division rival, but it seems the the lesser of the two evils and the best Lamoriello could obviously do.  Ottawa being able to absorb Phaneuf's contract and the Leafs acquiring Lindberg (the 'prize' of the trade) works out favourably for both clubs.

Wishing Dion all the best in Ottawa.  Too bad he never ingratiated himself to the fans, no matter how hard he worked on that ice (particularly this year under Babcock).

 

[ZBBM]

Ian Mendes with an article detailing how the trade came together: http://www.tsn.ca/how-the-phaneuf-deal-got-done-1.435649

An interesting note there is that Milan Michalek also ruined it as he was initially reluctant to waive his NTC.

Well, one thing you have to admire about LouLam, he knows how to keep his mouth shut.  No GM would hesitate to explore possible deals with him.

 

[rdowdall]

No, but I think the perception is that Boumeester is a better d-man overall.

I think that's the perception now, sure, but at the time of being traded lots of people saw Bouwmeester in a similar light. Overpaid by a million or so and miscast as a #1.

You have the 1st pick, which was 22nd overall, an undrafted prospect and a goalie taken in the 4th round.

Sure, so a significantly better return without the garbage contracts thrown in and, again, working on the consideration that having less term isn't necessarily a good thing.

I don't think it's significantly better.  It's been said before on this site that the talent disparity between the 22nd pick and a pick in the 40's (an assumption on where that pick might be.  It could be lower, it could be higher) isn't that great.  Also, the prospect they got, while a fourth rounder, has show flashes that he might have been selected late.  Ottawa was fairly high on him, and he was considered their third best prospect behind White and Chabot.  I don't think that Cundri or Berra were rated that highly at the time of the trade.  The garbage contracts expire within the next two years so their impact isn't likely to be felt. 

If Cowen ever rebounded that could be a coo for the Leafs.  I doubt that happens, but you never know.

 

[herman]

Ian Mendes with an article detailing how the trade came together: http://www.tsn.ca/how-the-phaneuf-deal-got-done-1.435649

An interesting note there is that Milan Michalek almost ruined it as he was initially reluctant to waive his NTC.

I love that Clarke MacArthur was instrumental to this deal as well, as Phaneuf was the one that brought him to Toronto in the first place.

 

[Bullfrog]

Let me put it to you like this: I think you aren't too far off on Phaneuf's value as a UFA this offseason. The delta between those and today's Phaneuf is the equivalent of the Leafs taking on 7.5-13M in salary as part of that trade. Using the mid-point, would you feel like the Leafs got better value if they had received a low 1st and a better prospect while retaining $2M/year on his contract, compared to a mid-low 2nd, and Lindberg? I'm not sure it is...

EDIT: It would be very hard for the Leafs not to take on some salary coming back. Which, given their current situation comes off the books before they are likely to be contenders - so not as much impact.

They finally lifted your ban?

 

[Kin]

Let me put it to you like this: I think you aren't too far off on Phaneuf's value as a UFA this offseason. The delta between those and today's Phaneuf is the equivalent of the Leafs taking on 7.5-13M in salary as part of that trade. Using the mid-point, would you feel like the Leafs got better value if they had received a low 1st and a better prospect while retaining $2M/year on his contract, compared to a mid-low 2nd, and Lindberg? I'm not sure it is...

Well, if I can, let me put it to you another way. Let's say there's a player out there that you think would really help the Leafs. Not a superstar, no, but a definite top 6 forward who flirts with being a top notch 1st liner. To put a face on it, let's say it's the equivalent of a healthy, in his prime Nathan Horton.

He's on the table for 5 years/27.5 and you couldn't be happier. You're really excited about him filling that role at that cost for the next five years.

So then negotiations hit a snag. He's still available but now it's 5 years/35. Does your interest vanish? Is that a hard pass? Are cap dollars so valuable that overpaying a player by 1.5 million turns you off like that?

The reason I didn't really answer your question If I'm really excited to add a player, if I think that they're really going to help out in an important role...I don't know that 1.5 million like that makes the difference you seem to think it does, where it goes from "I want to trade for Phaneuf" to "I'm only trading for Phaneuf if you eat a sizable portion of his salary".

But I freely admit I'm on unsure footing there. I could be wrong about the way that money, and Phaneuf, are perceived.

 

[Omallley]

Let me put it to you like this: I think you aren't too far off on Phaneuf's value as a UFA this offseason. The delta between those and today's Phaneuf is the equivalent of the Leafs taking on 7.5-13M in salary as part of that trade. Using the mid-point, would you feel like the Leafs got better value if they had received a low 1st and a better prospect while retaining $2M/year on his contract, compared to a mid-low 2nd, and Lindberg? I'm not sure it is...

EDIT: It would be very hard for the Leafs not to take on some salary coming back. Which, given their current situation comes off the books before they are likely to be contenders - so not as much impact.

They finally lifted your ban?

Amazingly, it was just about as long as Phaneuf's tenure.

 

[Kin]

I don't think it's significantly better.  It's been said before on this site that the talent disparity between the 22nd pick and a pick in the 40's (an assumption on where that pick might be.) isn't that great

Similar analysis has been shown that there's not a world of difference between having the #31 pick or the #99 pick. Despite that, I think you'd agree that in terms of asset value Columbus' or the Leafs' second round pick right now is significantly more valuable than, say, Montreal's 4th.

Likewise, the second rounder being a year out doesn't just throw its value into question based on where it is, it also makes any player taken with it a year further away.

And, again, no garbage. And, again, this with the assumption that Phaneuf is a player you're pumped to have on the team for 5 years.

 

[Omallley]

But I freely admit I'm on unsure footing there. I could be wrong about the way that money, and Phaneuf, are perceived.

You've gone soft in your old age, Nik.

 

[bustaheims]

I don't think it's significantly better.  It's been said before on this site that the talent disparity between the 22nd pick and a pick in the 40's (an assumption on where that pick might be.  It could be lower, it could be higher) isn't that great.  Also, the prospect they got, while a fourth rounder, has show flashes that he might have been selected late.  Ottawa was fairly high on him, and he was considered their third best prospect behind White and Chabot.  I don't think that Cundri or Berra were rated that highly at the time of the trade.  The garbage contracts expire within the next two years so their impact isn't likely to be felt. 

If Cowen ever rebounded that could be a coo for the Leafs.  I doubt that happens, but you never know.

Yeah, I'm not sure Calgary got a significant better return, either. They got a better pick, Leafs got a better prospect. That balances out somewhat. Calgary didn't have to take on cap dumps, but the Leafs moved a player with more term on his deal - which also balances out somewhat. If any of the filler pieces the Leafs sent turn into legit NHLers, that would change things, but, right now, they're really just moving contracts off the reserve list. Calgary did manage to turn Berra into a 2nd round pick in a separate deal, but, at the time of the trade, that obviously wasn't known. The Leafs may be able to turn the salary dumps into picks as well.

All-in-all, pretty comparable to the Bouwmeester trade.

 

[nutman]

This is awesome... I hope he is not done moving out the old.  I wont miss the pylon.

 

[Kin]

Calgary did manage to turn Berra into a 2nd round pick in a separate deal, but, at the time of the trade, that obviously wasn't known.

It wasn't known but it might speak to the idea that he was a "worse" prospect than what the Leafs got.