Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
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Phileas Fogg
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This thread reminds me of the "once we make it safe, they're coming home" quote from 2016.
Failure is equally tantalizing to the Toronto hockey media as success, if not more so. I've listened and read a bunch of sports writers and radio/tv shows, and it's like they're spinning a wheel of every player, coach, and visible manager, and creating a narrative around why this particular person let the team down. Babcock, Brown, Hainsey, Nylander, Gardiner, Marleau, Kadri, Andersen, Hyman, Kapanen, etc etc etc. It's unreal to see the vitriol gleefully being stoked in the name of talking points and ratings.
It'll never be a comfortable place for any player to play, let alone a hometown one. It makes the Tavares signing all the more remarkable.
Failure is equally tantalizing to the Toronto hockey media as success, if not more so. I've listened and read a bunch of sports writers and radio/tv shows, and it's like they're spinning a wheel of every player, coach, and visible manager, and creating a narrative around why this particular person let the team down. Babcock, Brown, Hainsey, Nylander, Gardiner, Marleau, Kadri, Andersen, Hyman, Kapanen, etc etc etc. It's unreal to see the vitriol gleefully being stoked in the name of talking points and ratings.
It'll never be a comfortable place for any player to play, let alone a hometown one. It makes the Tavares signing all the more remarkable.
Guilt Trip
Active member
I really don't care how he talks to the media, I care how he runs the PP/PK and doles out the ice time, makes in game, out game adjustments. I know he's an NHL coach and we're all coaching from our chairs but some of his decisions were piss poor that we all saw. What's really bad is everyone, including Brian Burke and Cherry say he messed up. Cherry was 100% right last night when discussing the PP. He needs to let his best players stay out there. The only thing wrong with it is time. Babs is literally forcing them to do something within the 1st 45 seconds of it because they're off. A PP is 2 mins long so you need to give your best players at least 3/4 of that time to try and do something. The PP shouldn't be under pressure, the guys PKing should be under pressure.
hockeyfan1
New member
We all know this by now: the devil was in the details...
(Zee posted something about this before but the tweet contains a short summarization. For those who non-subscribers):
[tweet]1121110503617703936[/tweet]
(Zee posted something about this before but the tweet contains a short summarization. For those who non-subscribers):
[tweet]1121110503617703936[/tweet]
azzurri63
Active member
After listening to both Dubas' and Babcock's press conferences yesterday I think this team is headed nowhere.
Honestly think next year is going to be a similar case.
Dave Feschuk thinks exactly the same about Babcock's coaching and decisions that may have cost us the series.
Babcock's horrible playoff numbers.
Decision to keep Hyman on the 1st line knowing he was playing hurt and not contributing which may have affected the whole line.
PP decisions and playing the 1st unit for only a minute.
Can go on and on with his coaching tactics.
Bottom line is he needs to go because he isn't changing a thing.
Dubas I know a lot of you disagree f'd up with Nylander. He even said should have got it done sooner and basically the late deal was suiting Nylander to fail.
Nylander had enough time to get his sh*t together during the season and didn't.
Playoffs non existent albeit crappy wingers but I know he can be better but is he a guy you can rely on in the playoffs?
I don't think so. Too soft and shys away from the dirty areas too much. One shift here and there doesn't cut it.
Paying Nylander what he did set the stage for Matthews and Marners contracts which now have completely fuk'd this team.
Dubas strikes me as Mr. Nice guy.
Should have played hardball with Nylander before season start and say hey you don't wanna sign for 6-6.5 then see you later. They would have gotten a decent return.
Are they going to get the same for him now? Tough to tell.
Anyway both Mike and Kyle screwed us this year and if things stay status quo aint going to be better next year.
Rinse and repeat I've been saying and hopefully I'm wrong.
Honestly think next year is going to be a similar case.
Dave Feschuk thinks exactly the same about Babcock's coaching and decisions that may have cost us the series.
Babcock's horrible playoff numbers.
Decision to keep Hyman on the 1st line knowing he was playing hurt and not contributing which may have affected the whole line.
PP decisions and playing the 1st unit for only a minute.
Can go on and on with his coaching tactics.
Bottom line is he needs to go because he isn't changing a thing.
Dubas I know a lot of you disagree f'd up with Nylander. He even said should have got it done sooner and basically the late deal was suiting Nylander to fail.
Nylander had enough time to get his sh*t together during the season and didn't.
Playoffs non existent albeit crappy wingers but I know he can be better but is he a guy you can rely on in the playoffs?
I don't think so. Too soft and shys away from the dirty areas too much. One shift here and there doesn't cut it.
Paying Nylander what he did set the stage for Matthews and Marners contracts which now have completely fuk'd this team.
Dubas strikes me as Mr. Nice guy.
Should have played hardball with Nylander before season start and say hey you don't wanna sign for 6-6.5 then see you later. They would have gotten a decent return.
Are they going to get the same for him now? Tough to tell.
Anyway both Mike and Kyle screwed us this year and if things stay status quo aint going to be better next year.
Rinse and repeat I've been saying and hopefully I'm wrong.
Guilt Trip
Active member
I'm not quoting the whole thing but Dubas did not screw us. Yes he mishandled the Nylander deal but whatever. It was his first big deal ever so he'll learn from it. He should have told him here's the deal, take it or sit out the year. You don't trade him as his value was extrememly low. As for the Nylander contract setting up Matthews and Marner's. Not a chance. His contract value has ZERO to do with either one of those guys. As for Willy having enough time. We can all say that from the outside but ask anyone who played at that level, it doesn't work that way. It's been proven over and over again, you can't miss training camp and be out for 3 months. It's not an excuse, it's reality. I think he'll be fine moving forward and his cap hit will be in line. Issue with a lot of teams now is that they can't afford to keep all their toys because there are no more bridge deals. Wait until you see this summer with all those RFAs and Cap implications. It should be pretty wild. Leafs aren't the only team facing this issue.
As for your comments on Babs, I won't disagree. I really don't think he's the right guy for this team. All one needs to do is look at the defensive system over his tenure.
As for your comments on Babs, I won't disagree. I really don't think he's the right guy for this team. All one needs to do is look at the defensive system over his tenure.
OldTimeHockey
Active member
herman said:
How does anyone in their right mind have a problem with those comments?
The people that blame the coach around here sound like the same parents that blame their goalie when johnny loses. Or yells at the coach when their kid isn't getting enough ice time. The same people that yell at the 15 year old linesman that misses an offside call. Give your heads a shake, or at least try to be reasonable in your calling for people's jobs.
Again I'll ask.....How is it possible that the losses are all the coaches fault and the wins are all the players doing? The players are winning despite the coaching and the team is losing despite the players efforts?
Like I said in the other thread, Babcock made some tactical errors. Andersen let in two terrible goals in game 7. Gardiner set up yet another Boston goal. I mean obviously that falls on the head coach right? I mean surely Babcock could have told Andersen to come out to challenge on a shot from the slot. Surely Babcock should of told Gardiner not to pull the reverse behind the net when there were 3 black jerseys behind him and no white in sight.
I mean...Right? Damn coaching.
The Leafs got beat by the better team in this series, it's that simple IMO. Boston is big, mean, and skilled, and they are built for the playoffs. They know how to win when it counts. They are a more experienced team.
Taking Boston to 7 games was a very good showing by the Leafs. I feared this type of outcome. It's too bad. And next season they are in a bit of a salary cap situation until Nathan Horton comes off the books AFAIK. We'll see if Dubas can work some magic. It seems like two years in a row now that the Leafs have wasted some good assets to make a run at things prematurely. They could have traded Jake Gardiner for a haul this season and last year they had JVR. I like Muzzin a lot but I don't really foresee the Leafs being a true cup contender next season. I could be wrong. It's just they are in a bad situation with respect to the cap.
If Kapanen and Johnsson are traded because of the salary cap situation I will not be a happy man. I have said from the beginning that I would rather have those two guys as opposed to Nylander. We'll see what happens over the summer but I do foresee some pretty major changes. I don't think Babcock or Dubas are going anywhere. But it will be interesting to see what happens with Nylander/Kapanen/Johnsson and perhaps even Kadri in light of his antics.
Taking Boston to 7 games was a very good showing by the Leafs. I feared this type of outcome. It's too bad. And next season they are in a bit of a salary cap situation until Nathan Horton comes off the books AFAIK. We'll see if Dubas can work some magic. It seems like two years in a row now that the Leafs have wasted some good assets to make a run at things prematurely. They could have traded Jake Gardiner for a haul this season and last year they had JVR. I like Muzzin a lot but I don't really foresee the Leafs being a true cup contender next season. I could be wrong. It's just they are in a bad situation with respect to the cap.
If Kapanen and Johnsson are traded because of the salary cap situation I will not be a happy man. I have said from the beginning that I would rather have those two guys as opposed to Nylander. We'll see what happens over the summer but I do foresee some pretty major changes. I don't think Babcock or Dubas are going anywhere. But it will be interesting to see what happens with Nylander/Kapanen/Johnsson and perhaps even Kadri in light of his antics.
herman
Well-known member
OldTimeHockey said:
The reactions came off the twitter snippets where only some of the answer was posted without much context.
i.e. We've got to continue to build and add depth and add players.
That reads as absolving himself of responsibility (sup, Zee), even though it's something every team could say. People were expecting him to offer at least a mea culpa, but honestly, every single person does what they believe is right at the time, and it takes time to recognize if it was wrong or not. Take every single post in this board that you would consider ridiculously, factually wrong: that poster believed it to be true and correct.
Redleaf
Active member
I think I?ll give Dubas the benefit of the doubt for what happened this season and in the playoffs. There are only a handful of current Leaf players with his fingerprints on, and Babcock was not his hire either.
EDIT: he?s only brought in 3 new players during his first year as GM. Tavares, Muzzin and Ennis, and all 3 looked good this season and even better in the playoffs.
This off season should be telling about what we might see under his direction. I?d be super surprised if he doesn?t make one or two bold moves to tweak the bottom half of the lineup and the defence.
Unlike many on this board , I don?t think we are as far off as some of you think. Sprinkle in a few more defensive minded players to the mix we should see the Leafs take it to the next level next season.
But, clearly the honeymoon is over for Dubas . Time is now to prove to Shanny and Leaf Nation you were the right choice for the job
EDIT: he?s only brought in 3 new players during his first year as GM. Tavares, Muzzin and Ennis, and all 3 looked good this season and even better in the playoffs.
This off season should be telling about what we might see under his direction. I?d be super surprised if he doesn?t make one or two bold moves to tweak the bottom half of the lineup and the defence.
Unlike many on this board , I don?t think we are as far off as some of you think. Sprinkle in a few more defensive minded players to the mix we should see the Leafs take it to the next level next season.
But, clearly the honeymoon is over for Dubas . Time is now to prove to Shanny and Leaf Nation you were the right choice for the job
The window is in 2 years and will open up for a few years at that time. If Dubas is smart he will parlay some assets for a bit of a mini on the fly rebuild next season. I think the Leafs will be a playoff team next season regardless which will be fun, and anything can happen as Columbus has shown us this season. I just hope Dubas doesn't make another run at it at the trade deadline next season. The Leafs would be completely stacked right now if they had traded JVR and Gardiner the past two trade deadlines while also refraining from using picks/prospects to acquire assets prematurely.RedLeaf said:
I guess it's easy to say that now in hindsight. The Leafs were the betting favorites to win the cup at the beginning of the season.
Guilt Trip
Active member
Dubas didn't make a run this year at the TD. He got Petan. If you're referring to the Muzz deal I wouldn't classify that as a run. It was an area of need and he made a trade and while he used assets to acquire him, it was a very good trade. As for Gardiner, he wasn't getting you much at the deadline and JVR, Bozak and Leo were on Lou.sickbeast said:
Guilt Trip
Active member
Yup. Only way he goes is if it's for a quality RD coming back.Bullfrog said:
Highlander
Active member
Bullfrog said:
Bullfrog is right Willie N is not going anywhere soon or ever.
Guilt Trip
Active member
I think he scores 30 next year with Matthews. He has something to prove.Highlander said:
ZBBM
Active member
I've been thinking about this a bit since Tuesday and I think I'm not far off the mark when I say that Babcock's PK decisions in Game 6 were the turning point in the series.
I'm a witless palooka but even I recognize that you can't have a winger taking faceoffs against the league's best faceoff man when you have a 1-0 lead and they're on a PP. At that point in the series, you are up at home with a chance to put your boot on their neck. You absolutely need to get a centerman out there to take a draw, even if the plan is to get him off ASAP. If you aren't going to do that, and (guess what) you lose the draw, the next you thing you don't do is let the puck go to Johansen or whoever it was and let him sit there 2 feet from the goal like he's at the office copying machine. You aggressively force him to make a play, not sit back and play reactive in your end the whole 2 minutes.
And thirdly, if you go ahead and do those 2 stupid things and (guess what) they tie it 1-1, you don't do the same exact damn things the next PP. Because it will be 2-1, you'll go on to lose G6, you'll go on to lose G7, and then you're sitting here 5 days later playing "what if."
The more I think about that the more it burns me.
Mike Babcock didn't lose us the series. But he didn't do some pretty obvious things that would have given us a much better chance to win it.
I'm a witless palooka but even I recognize that you can't have a winger taking faceoffs against the league's best faceoff man when you have a 1-0 lead and they're on a PP. At that point in the series, you are up at home with a chance to put your boot on their neck. You absolutely need to get a centerman out there to take a draw, even if the plan is to get him off ASAP. If you aren't going to do that, and (guess what) you lose the draw, the next you thing you don't do is let the puck go to Johansen or whoever it was and let him sit there 2 feet from the goal like he's at the office copying machine. You aggressively force him to make a play, not sit back and play reactive in your end the whole 2 minutes.
And thirdly, if you go ahead and do those 2 stupid things and (guess what) they tie it 1-1, you don't do the same exact damn things the next PP. Because it will be 2-1, you'll go on to lose G6, you'll go on to lose G7, and then you're sitting here 5 days later playing "what if."
The more I think about that the more it burns me.
Mike Babcock didn't lose us the series. But he didn't do some pretty obvious things that would have given us a much better chance to win it.