Queen Elizabeth 2
- Thread starter Arn
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WhatIfGodWasALeaf
Active member
Bender said:
Your phones emojis that you use on tapatalk do not work on the site for anyone not using tapatalk.
Care to elaborate on your monocle smiley?
Kin
Active member
WhatIfGodWasALeaf said:
If you'll indulge me that brings to mind something I wrestle with internally. My family has a photo of my Great-Grandfather. A man I never met as he died when my Grandmother was young. He was apparently a bit of a Ne'er-do-well, always skipping out of town just as the bills came due. He went from England to India to Africa to, eventually, Canada where my Grandmother was born and he passed away.
Anyways, the photo is of him when he was in Africa and flush. He's sitting in a nice chair in a crisp white linen suit, smoking a pipe, in front of a large house and his African servants are standing around him. He looks like a smug jerk. The children are dressed in western clothes. The adults in what I assume is native garb and the women are all topless. Almost all of them look miserable. It is, without a doubt, all the ugliness of The British Empire summed up in a photograph. It's mortifying. It's embarrassing to think that's part of my family's past.
But my Grandmother kept the photo. To her it was a picture of her Father and one of the few she had. She was of a different generation and didn't seem to see anything wrong with it. My grandmother was complicated. Like a lot of people of her generation she had some very retrograde views on some things but on the other hand she and my grandfather were in Maclean's in the 50's as one of the small number of white families to adopt a black child and was fine with my parent's interfaith marriage. Now, she's gone and my mother has the photo. My mom never knew the man in the photo but, to her, it's just a connection to her mother. Something her mother valued.
(For the record, it's not hung on the wall or anything. It's just in among the collection of old family photos we have.)
Now, my mother is in her 70's and so sometimes I think about what I'll do with the photo when, hopefully not for many a year still knock on wood, the photo is mine. My sister, who's of sterner stuff than me, hates the photo and would definitely cast her vote for burning it or just otherwise consigning it to the garbage bin of history. Deep down, I think she's right. But still there's that one little bit of me that thinks...well, this was a person. Without him and the lousy things he did, I wouldn't be here. And this photo is something that my family hung onto for years. Through the Depression and WW2, where my Grandmother served in the WRNS. Through many moves both within Canada and even to other countries. I remember my Grandmother and Grandfather talking about it and about him. My mother and aunt joking about it. Despite what I thought of it, it was part of the weirdness that went into my family being who they are.
I don't know, I'm sort of rambling in search of a point to some extent. But I've been thinking about that photo a lot this week. I obviously get why you'd be wishing a pox on me if I looked at the Queen's death and got a little wistful about it because, intellectually, I'm right there with you. All hate to the state, boo to the class system, the Empire was a terrible historical wrong and nostalgia for her era seems to be slowly killing the United Kingdom, etc. But our pasts are complicated things and symbols, even ugly ones that represent historical wrongs, can get filtered over the years through our experiences with them until they mean something very different to us.
WhatIfGodWasALeaf
Active member
Nik, I appreciate that, nobody is all bad.
There have been monsters in my family too. I appreciate we all have family entanglements that blur the lines, I had an older cousin that was a British soldier in Belfast and I spit on his grave.
Time washes away a lot of sin.
If we live for another 1000 years, I'll never forgive them.
They and the institutions they preside over have destroyed my people, Irish and Scots and millions like us around the world since the history books were first composed..
There are certain things though that are not frivolous enough to partake in whimsical thought exercises.
Genuinely all the best to you and yours, perhaps pox was harsh.
There have been monsters in my family too. I appreciate we all have family entanglements that blur the lines, I had an older cousin that was a British soldier in Belfast and I spit on his grave.
Time washes away a lot of sin.
If we live for another 1000 years, I'll never forgive them.
They and the institutions they preside over have destroyed my people, Irish and Scots and millions like us around the world since the history books were first composed..
There are certain things though that are not frivolous enough to partake in whimsical thought exercises.
Genuinely all the best to you and yours, perhaps pox was harsh.
For me I understand all that. I want Canada to ditch the monarchy altogether. But when QE2 reigned she really didn't have much power and was basically consigned to be a figurehead. For us Canadians I think you can separate what the crown represented historically and QE2, and understand that some may feel a bit odd that this person who was de facto Canada's head of state since before my father was born is no longer here.WhatIfGodWasALeaf said:Nik, I appreciate that, nobody is all bad.
There have been monsters in my family too. I appreciate we all have family entanglements that blur the lines, I had an older cousin that was a British soldier in Belfast and I spit on his grave.
Time washes away a lot of sin.
If we live for another 1000 years, I'll never forgive them.
They and the institutions they preside over have destroyed my people, Irish and Scots and millions like us around the world since the history books were first composed..
There are certain things though that are not frivolous enough to partake in whimsical thought exercises.
Genuinely all the best to you and yours, perhaps pox was harsh.
And as an aside, I also don't think we need to bring up the fact that we live in Canada (many of us born here) which brings with it its own messy and complicated history...
Sent from my SM-S908W using Tapatalk
Kin
Active member
WhatIfGodWasALeaf said:Nik, I appreciate that, nobody is all bad.
There have been monsters in my family too. I appreciate we all have family entanglements that blur the lines, I had an older cousin that was a British soldier in Belfast and I spit on his grave.
Time washes away a lot of sin.
If we live for another 1000 years, I'll never forgive them.
They and the institutions they preside over have destroyed my people, Irish and Scots and millions like us around the world since the history books were first composed..
There are certain things though that are not frivolous enough to partake in whimsical thought exercises.
Genuinely all the best to you and yours, perhaps pox was harsh.
So that story was about part of my Mother's family. My Father's family, however, is entirely European Jewish Diaspora. Specifically German and Polish Jews. So please believe me when I say "How do you deal with a complicated past?" and "How should we manage the historical grudges we're inclined towards" are very real questions that I've wrestled with myself and very much not a whimsical thought exercise.
So I'm not saying I don't understand where you're coming from, I'm not even saying you're wrong to think the way you do and I bet I could go toe to toe with you on negative thoughts I have towards people who I think embody that history. Plus, as a member of a group of people who Edward the First straight up banished from that Island for over three hundred years, I certainly understand the natural antipathy anyone would feel towards the institution of the English monarchy and those that propagate the ideas it was built on.
My point wasn't "You shouldn't dislike the British monarchy" it was that when things are very old sometimes our feelings about them get caught up with our memories of how they affected us and it's not quite a simple intellectual thought process. What I was really trying to say, in my typical long-winded and rambling way, is that when the Queen died it was hard not to get my feelings towards it jumbled up with missing my grandparents.
Arn
Well-known member
I enjoyed reading all the above viewpoints, and have a lot of empathy for all of them.
Being from Northern Ireland and generally brought up by my parents as "unionist" I've certainly drifted a long way from that ideology as I've grown older. I wouldn't go so far as to say I'd be Republican in any way ideologically, but certainly my decision would be made on pragmatic reasons now which may not have been the case in my younger days.
I would say the idea or position of "monarchy" I can take or leave. I'm not massively in favour or against.
But what I will say is that if you are going to have a monarch as a figurehead, QE2 actually I think did a good job of the role and used it well at times. In fact, the below BBC article is a really good example of an area I think she's made a massive difference in
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-62871441
I think sometimes a person transcends the role they find themselves in and I think in a way QE2 has done that (based on my experience in British/Irish relations) and I commend her for that.
Interestingly I was at a hockey game last night and the Belfast team was set up as "cross community" so we're the only team in the league who don't play national anthems etc before games.
Yesterday, however, we did have a 2 minute silence which is the first time in the 20+ year history of the club there has been any recogntion of a death of someone who wasn't hockey related. Indeed, the game was only really permitted to be played during the national mourning period if such a measure was put in place.
It was interesting to me to look around and see the silence absolutely impeccably observed. There were a decent number of people who made a bit of a silent protest by not standing, which is fair enough. But I think even that suggests that there is at least respect for the person if not the office.
Being from Northern Ireland and generally brought up by my parents as "unionist" I've certainly drifted a long way from that ideology as I've grown older. I wouldn't go so far as to say I'd be Republican in any way ideologically, but certainly my decision would be made on pragmatic reasons now which may not have been the case in my younger days.
I would say the idea or position of "monarchy" I can take or leave. I'm not massively in favour or against.
But what I will say is that if you are going to have a monarch as a figurehead, QE2 actually I think did a good job of the role and used it well at times. In fact, the below BBC article is a really good example of an area I think she's made a massive difference in
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-62871441
I think sometimes a person transcends the role they find themselves in and I think in a way QE2 has done that (based on my experience in British/Irish relations) and I commend her for that.
Interestingly I was at a hockey game last night and the Belfast team was set up as "cross community" so we're the only team in the league who don't play national anthems etc before games.
Yesterday, however, we did have a 2 minute silence which is the first time in the 20+ year history of the club there has been any recogntion of a death of someone who wasn't hockey related. Indeed, the game was only really permitted to be played during the national mourning period if such a measure was put in place.
It was interesting to me to look around and see the silence absolutely impeccably observed. There were a decent number of people who made a bit of a silent protest by not standing, which is fair enough. But I think even that suggests that there is at least respect for the person if not the office.
WhatIfGodWasALeaf
Active member
Nik, thanks for the discourse, I can certainly relate to that sense of loss.
Arn, she wasn't all bad, but her crown never seemed to weigh heavy enough for her to actually help those at the bottom of the ladder, some are more impressed than others when it comes to empty WASPy gestures. Much like her Catholic equivalent the Pope, never really intervening in a meaningful way.
Bender, it is true, the lens of history casts a dark shadow.
Arn, she wasn't all bad, but her crown never seemed to weigh heavy enough for her to actually help those at the bottom of the ladder, some are more impressed than others when it comes to empty WASPy gestures. Much like her Catholic equivalent the Pope, never really intervening in a meaningful way.
Bender, it is true, the lens of history casts a dark shadow.
Arn
Well-known member
If there was a like function I would use it for that post WIGWAL. I feel that she did more than many of her predecessors. I feel that she pushed boundaries that others may not have. But I 100% agree she is constrained by the conventions of the crown in maybe doing more and I think she may have had a personal battle with that balance.
And I?ll be curious to see how much her successor goes. He?s known for his outspoken views on climate issues particularly. I wonder if those views will now disappear or will he push against the conventions, for example.
And I?ll be curious to see how much her successor goes. He?s known for his outspoken views on climate issues particularly. I wonder if those views will now disappear or will he push against the conventions, for example.
Bullfrog
Active member
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/prince-harry-will-reportedly-be-left-out-of-a-royal-family-tradition-at-the-queen-s-funeral/ar-AA11KnWD?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=b5cff1326b584ac1f64baccce70b0f09
Cool. cool. So Prince Andrew -- a likely rapist -- can wear a military uniform at the funeral, but Prince Harry -- who served for 10 years -- can not. How out-dated is the monarchy?
Cool. cool. So Prince Andrew -- a likely rapist -- can wear a military uniform at the funeral, but Prince Harry -- who served for 10 years -- can not. How out-dated is the monarchy?
Arn
Well-known member
The new king had his moment in Northern Ireland today.
I thought the interactions with Sinn Fein were fascinating. The speech delivered to the king was given by the speaker of the house, who is a Sinn Fein member and devoted republican and reflected on the Queens role in Ireland. Bit of a summary below
https://www.itv.com/news/utv/2022-09-13/what-sinn-fein-leaders-said-during-meeting-with-the-king
I thought the interactions with Sinn Fein were fascinating. The speech delivered to the king was given by the speaker of the house, who is a Sinn Fein member and devoted republican and reflected on the Queens role in Ireland. Bit of a summary below
https://www.itv.com/news/utv/2022-09-13/what-sinn-fein-leaders-said-during-meeting-with-the-king
WhatIfGodWasALeaf
Active member
I'm glad I'm gone to be honest, stories of people being arrested for peaceful protest are horrifying.
Fascists in plain sight.
Fascists in plain sight.
OldTimeHockey
Active member
It's ridiculous that the canadian federal government will be granted a holiday on September 19th to mourn the loss of the queen.
Not quite as ridiculous as a federal holiday to remember those effected by residential schools....but ridiculous all the same.
Not quite as ridiculous as a federal holiday to remember those effected by residential schools....but ridiculous all the same.
OldTimeHockey
Active member
Bender said:
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.
madkenstalin
Member
My late friend and colleague's son was at the front of the coffin as it was carried into Westminster hall yesterday. His dad would have been so proud.