bustaheims
Active member
CarltonTheBear said:
There's talk out there that Howson is not interested in acquiring players that openly don't want to play in Columbus, and, apparently, JJ has made it known he doesn't want to play there.
Rick Nash potentially available
- Thread starter Erndog
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There's talk out there that Howson is not interested in acquiring players that openly don't want to play in Columbus, and, apparently, JJ has made it known he doesn't want to play there.
leafplasma said:
You can't really compare those stats. Scoring in the WHL and QMJHL are drastically different. Bernier's 2.70 GAA that year was the 4th best among goalies in his league, while Reimer's was the 15th best. In fact Bernier finished in the top-5 in both GAA and SA% in each of his final 3 seasons in juniors. Reimer never finished that high in either stat in any of his seasons. So I think it would be fair to say Bernier had a much better junior career.
I'd also say his lower-pro career has been better than Reimer's. Particularly his 09/10 season where he was named the AHL's top goaltender and posted a 1.81 GAA and .939 in 16 playoff games.
leafplasma said:
I suppose that's where we disagree quite a bit. Quite frankly Reimer hasn't done anything yet this season to prove that he's more than an average goalie with consistency problems. Yes, he played great for the Leafs last season but he still needs to back that up with something else before anybody considers him a future top starter.
As for Bernier's stats this season, I don't think they accurately reflect his play. He's only played in 11 games, and in 7 of his last starts he allowed 2 or less goals in 6 of them. You can credit LA for being a solid defensive team but they're also arguably the worst offensive one, and goalies need offensive support. I think it's also worth noting that we're talking about a goalie who has been used to starting the vast majority of games for his team his entire life, and is now being asked to play 1-3 times a month.
Basically, Bernier has been a better goalie and a more highly touted prospect than Reimer throughout their entire careers up until the NHL level, where Reimer has been given more of a chance to play than Bernier has due to the talent of the goalies on their respective teams. In my opinion, Reimer hasn't done anything to show that he can be a "top goalie" in the future, while the jury is still out on Bernier.
bustaheims said:
Interesting. I wonder how this effects trade negotiations. Since this has apparently leaked, you can be sure that anybody who doesn't want to play in Columbus (who can blame them) will be whispering that into their agents ears and that'll make it to Howson.
ZBBM
Active member
CarltonTheBear said:
Not looking to pick a big argument with you CTB, but on the face of it this seems like a pretty insupportable statement. He was above average last year, 4-0-1 to start this year, and then got concussed by Pissboy. Since then he's been all over the map but did throw 2 SOs in a row.
Frankly, I think the injury is something that will take him an off-season to fully shake off.
I am actually sort of a bigger fan (marginally) of Gustavsson than Reimer, but to write him off as being only of average upside is pretty far-fetched, at least at this point in his second season.
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
No worries, I was hoping to make it clear that my opinions of Reimer are just that, opinions. I don't exactly think the world of him. But really, up until his break with the Leafs last January if anybody said that Reimer would be an average starting goalie I think most people would have been quite surprised. Like I mentioned, he wasn't exactly a top goalie in the WHL at any point. Wasn't drafted very high. Was demoted to the ECHL in his first year in pro. He had a pretty good first year in the AHL but it was in limited action (an injury kept him out for over 2 months). And in his 2nd year in the AHL prior to the call-up he was splitting time with Rynnas.
At this point, given his history I don't think it's unfair to say that he overachieved at the end of the 10/11 season. To say that his realistic upside is that of an average starting goalie is hardly an insult. I just don't think he has the star potential that Bernier has, but hasn't quite lived up to yet in the NHL.
bustaheims
Active member
In terms of trade value right now, I'm not convinced there's a whole lot of difference between Reimer and Bernier. With Bernier, you get the more highly touted guy who might have a higher ceiling, but with Reimer, you get the more proven guy with an extra year on his contract (the difference in cap hit between them right now is not enough to really alter their value).
bustaheims said:
I don't think their overall value is too far off either, but I've already said the value of guys like Bernier are low because you never know if they'll become a Schneider or a Harding (not that Harding should be completely written off yet). With that said, this discussion is based off who Columbus would be more interested in. And I think if they're trading Rick Nash they'll be a lot more interested in looking for the potential home-run in Bernier than going the safe route with Reimer.
J
Jalili
Guest
Even though some pretty good arguments have been presented as to why their values should be close, I still think Bernier's value is higher around the league. Just because he has the hype of being an elite prospect and has been the more highly touted goalie of the two.
ontariojames
New member
Why do people think JJ is such a good player? The numbers don't lie, last on his team in +- 3 years in a row now, combined with the fact that he was known for being pretty bad defensively when he first came into the league and it's pretty safe to say those numbers aren't a coincidence. Now that he puts up decent offensive numbers, all of a sudden people think he's really good, including hockey analysts.CarltonTheBear said:
GhostofPotvin29
New member
Wait, so the Leafs were on Nash's list of teams he'd accept a trade to? Ha, after all that talk of people saying he wouldn't play in TO.
Corn Flake
New member
bustaheims said:
He better be only going after picks and prospects then. Can't imagine a whole lot of established NHL players are going to get excited about going to Columbus at this point.
Corn Flake
New member
Thinking about that JJ+Bernier offer... if I'm trying to rebuild my franchise basically from the ground up again, is that the type of return that sets the tone for the future as best it can?
I think something like Jake Gardiner, Kadri, roster player of some sort + a 1st or something to that effect be far better than a 25-year old d-man with a history of attitude problems and (as Busty noted) might have a serious problem playing for your team, plus a prospect goalie who has proved little in the NHL. Outside of the attitude thing, I would rather walk away with 3-4 pieces than 2, especially when knowing that 1 of those 2 is going to be an attitude problem.
I think something like Jake Gardiner, Kadri, roster player of some sort + a 1st or something to that effect be far better than a 25-year old d-man with a history of attitude problems and (as Busty noted) might have a serious problem playing for your team, plus a prospect goalie who has proved little in the NHL. Outside of the attitude thing, I would rather walk away with 3-4 pieces than 2, especially when knowing that 1 of those 2 is going to be an attitude problem.
Corn Flake
New member
I'm not going to post a link but I clicked on an article (yeah I fell for the title) in the Star written by a certain Q-balled egotistical columnist who is throwing around Gardiner's name for Nash. He also mentioned the Kessel for Nash ridiculous idea.
He even talks him up as being a possible future Duncan Keith, how he's playing 21 mins / night and Wilson calling him the most consistent d-man on the team the last 15 games. And then suggest you would trade the guy???
Gardiner. No. Just. no. way.
He even talks him up as being a possible future Duncan Keith, how he's playing 21 mins / night and Wilson calling him the most consistent d-man on the team the last 15 games. And then suggest you would trade the guy???
Gardiner. No. Just. no. way.
leafplasma
New member
bustaheims said:
Yes and this is what I was getting at. Reimer has been propped up by Leaf Nation to be the saviour and Bernier, although seen to be the guy with the most upside when drafted, hasn't really taken the bull by the horns or stole a job from Quick. I mean if you went on draft position alone why would Bernier not be given more of a chance over Quick who was drafted in the 3rd round. It is because Quick has performed and when it comes down to the nitty gritty, that is what is most important right?
Reimer elevated his worth last year and I am not a big fan either, he seems to have overachieved, I wish Gus was given the bulk of play right now. I think though if you remove our ability as the realistic Leaf Fan and put yourself in the position of the outsider and you just listen to the hype that is Reimer he may not have lost the god like status he gained last season. His numbers this year are not horrible and he was concussed, 2 of his 3 shutouts were gifts even but was Howson at those games, not likely.
So Reimer in place of Bernier in that deal is not a fall off in the eyes of Howson I would think. So with Jonathan Bernier, is he the next Al Montoya, an all but forgotten first round goalie prospect or will he be the next Luongo, a first round goalie prospect to have a long and successful NHL career. I think Reimer and Bernier have reached the point where the draft may be a distant memory right now. It is more of a what are you doing right now situation 6 years after the draft. I mean add the fact that Reimer is a product of a run and gun offensive system that has seen the red light lit at an astounding rate post-Belfour and I am sure that many a team looking for a goalie takes that into account when gauging a goaltender's worth.
maplesyrup
New member
MissConduct said:
Without reading the column, I assume it's so Cox can flame the Leafs for trading what could be a future All-Star defenseman? ;D
bustaheims
Active member
Corn Flake said:
Maybe not excited, but, I imagine there are a good portion of NHLers who are professionals about this and aren't against playing in Columbus, even if it wouldn't be their first choice.
Highlander
Active member
If they trade Gardner they are crazy, Schenn yes but not this guy