Sabres vs. Maple Leafs - Dec. 21st, 7:00pm - SN, Fan 590

[Guilt Trip]

Flipping embarrassing. 

Why are you embarrassed? It's a game and they sucked...oh well on to the next one Sat. 

Flipping embarrassing. 

Why are you embarrassed? It's a game and they sucked...oh well on to the next one Sat. 

I really like your optimism Guilt Trip.

Well I have no control over it so whatever. It's 1 of 82 and it's a shit show. No reason to get all bent about it because guess what, the players won't.

I really like your optimism Guilt Trip.

Well I have no control over it so whatever. It's 1 of 82 and it's a shit show. No reason to get all bent about it because guess what, the players won't.

There may lie the problem.

Players don't dwell on negative shit. And they shouldn't. That doesn't mean they won't go over video or that they don't care. You need a short memory.

 

[azzurri63]

I'm not embarrassed but the players sure ought to be.

They wont be. They'll know they played like shit and move on. Short memories. 

And will do it again. And again. And again.

And the playoffs will go as they always do.

I agree with you 100% Chris and been saying that for ages. I said pregame on the forum Jones should have started. Would they have won who knows probably not but start him anyway.Hard and demoralizing for a team when you see peewee calibre goaltending. Leafs were up 2-1 and Levi didn't look any better but I haven't liked the way this team has defended for years. It's not a recipe to win in the playoffs and this isn't just the last few games it's been all year with the occasional excellent effort defending. For as bad as the Oilers started the year and I'm not an Olier's lover I say they may end up with more points than us and probably make a deeper run in the playoffs. Guys might think I'm crazy but that's my take. Oilers goaltending and D has let them down just like the Leafs but I've watched a lot of their games and they have clearly been the better team most nights but get down because of net minding and D and then it snowballs to a loss. Leafs have won games this year when they haven't been the better team or come back to steal points. We'll see what happens but until I see a major trade and get some core out and bonafide players coming back I'm expecting the same as you come April.

 

[Chris]

I'm not embarrassed but the players sure ought to be.

They wont be. They'll know they played like shit and move on. Short memories. 

And will do it again. And again. And again.

And the playoffs will go as they always do.

I agree with you 100% Chris and been saying that for ages. I said pregame on the forum Jones should have started. Would they have won who knows probably not but start him anyway.Hard and demoralizing for a team when you see peewee calibre goaltending. Leafs were up 2-1 and Levi didn't look any better but I haven't liked the way this team has defended for years. It's not a recipe to win in the playoffs and this isn't just the last few games it's been all year with the occasional excellent effort defending. For as bad as the Oilers started the year and I'm not an Olier's lover I say they may end up with more points than us and probably make a deeper run in the playoffs. Guys might think I'm crazy but that's my take. Oilers goaltending and D has let them down just like the Leafs but I've watched a lot of their games and they have clearly been the better team most nights but get down because of net minding and D and then it snowballs to a loss. Leafs have won games this year when they haven't been the better team or come back to steal points. We'll see what happens but until I see a major trade and get some core out and bonafide players coming back I'm expecting the same as you come April.

Sure it's demoralizing when your goalie is letting too many goals in. But maybe the team should realize he is having confidence issues and actually play some defense. Sabres had a free hand all night.

This team continues to play when it wants to, taking periods and whole games off. They have enough raw offensive talent to still accumulate points but when playoff time arrives, everything gets tighter and you can't take periods off. Every shift matters. These bad habits don't magically disappear when playoffs start. They should be building those good habits now and yet they continue to fart around.

Anyway, not to self - again - stop watching games when the Leafs are playing teams near the bottom of the standings. I still haven't learned the lesson apparently.

 

[azzurri63]

I'm not embarrassed but the players sure ought to be.

They wont be. They'll know they played like shit and move on. Short memories. 

And will do it again. And again. And again.

And the playoffs will go as they always do.

I agree with you 100% Chris and been saying that for ages. I said pregame on the forum Jones should have started. Would they have won who knows probably not but start him anyway.Hard and demoralizing for a team when you see peewee calibre goaltending. Leafs were up 2-1 and Levi didn't look any better but I haven't liked the way this team has defended for years. It's not a recipe to win in the playoffs and this isn't just the last few games it's been all year with the occasional excellent effort defending. For as bad as the Oilers started the year and I'm not an Olier's lover I say they may end up with more points than us and probably make a deeper run in the playoffs. Guys might think I'm crazy but that's my take. Oilers goaltending and D has let them down just like the Leafs but I've watched a lot of their games and they have clearly been the better team most nights but get down because of net minding and D and then it snowballs to a loss. Leafs have won games this year when they haven't been the better team or come back to steal points. We'll see what happens but until I see a major trade and get some core out and bonafide players coming back I'm expecting the same as you come April.

Sure it's demoralizing when your goalie is letting too many goals in. But maybe the team should realize he is having confidence issues and actually play some defense. Sabres had a free hand all night.

This team continues to play when it wants to, taking periods and whole games off. They have enough raw offensive talent to still accumulate points but when playoff time arrives, everything gets tighter and you can't take periods off. Every shift matters. These bad habits don't magically disappear when playoffs start. They should be building those good habits now and yet they continue to fart around.

Anyway, not to self - again - stop watching games when the Leafs are playing teams near the bottom of the standings. I still haven't learned the lesson apparently.

Keefe has had them playing this way his whole tenure nothings changed. It puts too much pressure on your goalies or you have to pot 4 or 5 every night. They have the players that can do that but that puts too much pressure on your goalies. I've been a Leaf fan my whole life going back to the late 60's early 70's. I always bring up a trade back in the 80's when the Leafs acquired Bunny Larocque from the Habs. His GAA with the Habs was 3.03 and in his first season with the Leafs the rest of that season was 5.22 and in 2 seasons following his best GAA was 4.69. Quite the difference. Why? Because he played for a good Montreal team that knew how to defend and then traded to a team that gave up way more shots and didn't know how to play sound D. Leafs teams of the past years have reminded me of that. We all love seeing the goals by AM,  Willy etc etc but they have got to tighten up to some degree at some point. Unless you have a Vezina calibre goalie. Leafs should have went after a Hellebuyck.

 

[ZBBM]

I left with 10 minutes to go and it was 6-3.  Yikes.

Just read Petrielli's comments on MLHS, reminding us the Samsonov won the TB series last year.  It is worth remembering.  He is not nearly as bad as he has been (in too many games, to be sure) this year.  Nonetheless, demeanor-wise, he is the opposite of what the Leafs need in net.  They never look comfortable in front of a jumpy goalie.  I felt that way even when they had CuJo.

But, barring a very unlikely trade, they have to get Samsonov going.  I have no idea how, but they have to.  They really shouldn't bring up Hildeby ? that would be unfair to him.

They are in a tough spot.

 

[Guilt Trip]

I left with 10 minutes to go and it was 6-3.  Yikes.

Just read Petrielli's comments on MLHS, reminding us the Samsonov won the TB series last year.  It is worth remembering.  He is not nearly as bad as he has been (in too many games, to be sure) this year.  Nonetheless, demeanor-wise, he is the opposite of what the Leafs need in net.  They never look comfortable in front of a jumpy goalie.  I felt that way even when they had CuJo.

But, barring a very unlikely trade, they have to get Samsonov going.  I have no idea how, but they have to.  They really shouldn't bring up Hildeby ? that would be unfair to him.

They are in a tough spot.

Agree. They have to try and find a way to get him going. It's going to be a real challenge and it may never happen. Just thinking of something totally unlikely to happen...Somehow they lose Sammy's cap hit and Murray comes back and finds his old form. Now that would be hilarious.
Seriously tho the Leafs are in tough here. Jones is probably not the answer and maybe Hildeby could be but as great as he's looked, this is still his first year playing regularly in NA. Sammy def needs to go find his game with the Marlies but that would mean calling him up.
Let's hope Jones can get hot for a bit here.

 

[herman]

Holiday break might be a good reset. Getting truly dummied for the first time might finally shake something loose in the core group's brains about league parity; they are the leaders and the constant factor in these routine losses to bottom-feeding teams. There is no downplaying that they got smoked; this isn't bad bounces or goaltending flukes. They took it easy on a team lower in the standings as usual and got embarrassed (more than usual).

 

[dappleganger]

Time for a conditioning stint in the minors for Sammy?

 

[Champ Kind]

Penguins "embarrassed" by the Leafs last Saturday, 7-0.  "Quit" on their GM/President.  The "Core" is finished, lacklustre, time to tear it down.  "Off season acquisitions" are garbage.  "Jarry" is done, ship him out.

Then the Pens came back to beat the Wild and Canes this week.

Some may find Guilt Trip is simply drinking the Blue cool-aid.  I think he's one of this site's most reasonable members.  Things blew up last night, bad goal after bad goal and the team played like crap.  This happens to every team at some point along an 82 game season - maybe not this badly, mind you, but it happens.  Every hot streak has to come to an end.  The players will take this as a blip and try to reset.

 

[Chris]

I left with 10 minutes to go and it was 6-3.  Yikes.

Just read Petrielli's comments on MLHS, reminding us the Samsonov won the TB series last year.  It is worth remembering.  He is not nearly as bad as he has been (in too many games, to be sure) this year.  Nonetheless, demeanor-wise, he is the opposite of what the Leafs need in net.  They never look comfortable in front of a jumpy goalie.  I felt that way even when they had CuJo.

But, barring a very unlikely trade, they have to get Samsonov going.  I have no idea how, but they have to.  They really shouldn't bring up Hildeby ? that would be unfair to him.

They are in a tough spot.

It's definitely a tough spot.

Samsonov is really unplayable right now. Can they "fix" him - who knows. Sounds like he went through something similar during  his Capital days. Jones, he looks like he can "eat minutes" but his numbers really haven't been all that impressive for the last several years. Granted, that was mostly on bad teams (though even on Seattle last year his s% was only .887). And with the way the Leafs have been playing defense this year, that does not bode well.

Woll _looks_ like he could be the answer - good positionally, obviously very athletic. But...the big but is that he has been injured pretty much every year since turning pro. Can he be relied on as a number 1 goalie?

Hildeby is not someone I would want to expose to this Leaf defense right now, unless there is no other choice. OTOH, maybe he is one of those rare ones who is ready for that kind of baptism by fire at an early age.

I'd say they need to just play Jones for the next several games. Give Samsonov one of the back-to-back starts at the end of the month and reevaluate. If there are no signs of improvement in early January, then I think they need to waive him and hope he can get his act together in the AHL. At that point they'll need to either bring up Hildeby for a trial run, or try to pick up another goalie somewhere.

 

[azzurri63]

Penguins "embarrassed" by the Leafs last Saturday, 7-0.  "Quit" on their GM/President.  The "Core" is finished, lacklustre, time to tear it down.  "Off season acquisitions" are garbage.  "Jarry" is done, ship him out.

Then the Pens came back to beat the Wild and Canes this week.

Some may find Guilt Trip is simply drinking the Blue cool-aid.  I think he's one of this site's most reasonable members.  Things blew up last night, bad goal after bad goal and the team played like crap.  This happens to every team at some point along an 82 game season - maybe not this badly, mind you, but it happens.  Every hot streak has to come to an end.  The players will take this as a blip and try to reset.

Is it a blip or deep down are some of the issues plaguing this team still there? You can look at the hot streak even going back to the Sweden games where they weren't dominant how many actual games have they played sound and decisively were the better team. In the last month we stole a bunch of points when we shouldn't have. Game against Nashville, Ranger win at MSG, games against Boston and Florida were even matched and the Pittsburgh shellacking were 5 games I'd say where they played well. Sandwiched in there some losses against inferior teams and points stolen when clearly outplayed ie Kraken, Senators, Columbus, Islanders. There should be concerns and I'll be the first to admit the injuries and Sammy hasn't helped but I still see some glaring problems with this team. Problem is Tre's hands are tied unless you move a core piece or give up more picks or youth which quite frankly is thin due to Dumbass shipping everything off.

 

[azzurri63]

I watched Keefe and Sammy in post game interviews. Scratching my head after listening to both of them. Keefe says it's something he needs to work out with Sanford. Sammy says it's all in his head. Really? Your positioning is the issue he begs to differ. Everyone watching, analysts, commentators and us can see he's all over the place. I said it last year. Nothing has changed it's just now the pucks are going in. Players haven't helped the defensive part of the game is non existent with some. That falls on Keefe and his system. If the players don't want to commit to both ends of the ice then get rid of them. Keefe's decisions are mind boggling too. Why was Lagesson out yesterday. I'm not crazy for him but better than Timmins and then he moves I believe Brodie and McCabe to their wrong sides. Why?

 

[ZBBM]

I left with 10 minutes to go and it was 6-3.  Yikes.

Just read Petrielli's comments on MLHS, reminding us the Samsonov won the TB series last year.  It is worth remembering.  He is not nearly as bad as he has been (in too many games, to be sure) this year.  Nonetheless, demeanor-wise, he is the opposite of what the Leafs need in net.  They never look comfortable in front of a jumpy goalie.  I felt that way even when they had CuJo.

But, barring a very unlikely trade, they have to get Samsonov going.  I have no idea how, but they have to.  They really shouldn't bring up Hildeby ? that would be unfair to him.

They are in a tough spot.

It's definitely a tough spot.

Samsonov is really unplayable right now. Can they "fix" him - who knows. Sounds like he went through something similar during  his Capital days. Jones, he looks like he can "eat minutes" but his numbers really haven't been all that impressive for the last several years. Granted, that was mostly on bad teams (though even on Seattle last year his s% was only .887). And with the way the Leafs have been playing defense this year, that does not bode well.

Woll _looks_ like he could be the answer - good positionally, obviously very athletic. But...the big but is that he has been injured pretty much every year since turning pro. Can he be relied on as a number 1 goalie?

Hildeby is not someone I would want to expose to this Leaf defense right now, unless there is no other choice. OTOH, maybe he is one of those rare ones who is ready for that kind of baptism by fire at an early age.

I'd say they need to just play Jones for the next several games. Give Samsonov one of the back-to-back starts at the end of the month and reevaluate. If there are no signs of improvement in early January, then I think they need to waive him and hope he can get his act together in the AHL. At that point they'll need to either bring up Hildeby for a trial run, or try to pick up another goalie somewhere.

This seems like the most reasonable plan.

 

[ZBBM]

I watched Keefe and Sammy in post game interviews. Scratching my head after listening to both of them. Keefe says it's something he needs to work out with Sanford. Sammy says it's all in his head. Really? Your positioning is the issue he begs to differ. Everyone watching, analysts, commentators and us can see he's all over the place. I said it last year. Nothing has changed it's just now the pucks are going in. Players haven't helped the defensive part of the game is non existent with some. That falls on Keefe and his system. If the players don't want to commit to both ends of the ice then get rid of them. Keefe's decisions are mind boggling too. Why was Lagesson out yesterday. I'm not crazy for him but better than Timmins and then he moves I believe Brodie and McCabe to their wrong sides. Why?

Keefe is a real puzzler as a coach.  I long to see what somebody else can do with this bunch.

 

[Chris]

I watched Keefe and Sammy in post game interviews. Scratching my head after listening to both of them. Keefe says it's something he needs to work out with Sanford. Sammy says it's all in his head. Really? Your positioning is the issue he begs to differ. Everyone watching, analysts, commentators and us can see he's all over the place. I said it last year. Nothing has changed it's just now the pucks are going in. Players haven't helped the defensive part of the game is non existent with some. That falls on Keefe and his system. If the players don't want to commit to both ends of the ice then get rid of them. Keefe's decisions are mind boggling too. Why was Lagesson out yesterday. I'm not crazy for him but better than Timmins and then he moves I believe Brodie and McCabe to their wrong sides. Why?

Keefe is a real puzzler as a coach.  I long to see what somebody else can do with this bunch.

I've felt for a while now that this group could use a real shock to the system. Something like a coaching change, or the trade of a "core" player, or maybe missing the playoffs. There just seems to be no growth, it's pretty much the same thing year after year. They get their points, make their money, and there's always next game or next year.

This _has_ to be Keefe's last shot with this group, doesn't it? Assuming he gets through the season, and unless they go on a real deep playoff run, it needs to change...right? Then again, maybe the big change will be when Nylander walks away as a UFA.

 

[azzurri63]

I watched Keefe and Sammy in post game interviews. Scratching my head after listening to both of them. Keefe says it's something he needs to work out with Sanford. Sammy says it's all in his head. Really? Your positioning is the issue he begs to differ. Everyone watching, analysts, commentators and us can see he's all over the place. I said it last year. Nothing has changed it's just now the pucks are going in. Players haven't helped the defensive part of the game is non existent with some. That falls on Keefe and his system. If the players don't want to commit to both ends of the ice then get rid of them. Keefe's decisions are mind boggling too. Why was Lagesson out yesterday. I'm not crazy for him but better than Timmins and then he moves I believe Brodie and McCabe to their wrong sides. Why?

Keefe is a real puzzler as a coach.  I long to see what somebody else can do with this bunch.

I've felt for a while now that this group could use a real shock to the system. Something like a coaching change, or the trade of a "core" player, or maybe missing the playoffs. There just seems to be no growth, it's pretty much the same thing year after year. They get their points, make their money, and there's always next game or next year.

This _has_ to be Keefe's last shot with this group, doesn't it? Assuming he gets through the season, and unless they go on a real deep playoff run, it needs to change...right? Then again, maybe the big change will be when Nylander walks away as a UFA.

100% agree and I've said it multiple times the core needs to change and Keefe should have seen the door along with Dubas. We need a coach that can implement a more defensive system and 2 hold these guys accountable when they deserve it. He's had loads of time to get this team to the next level and hasn't. I don't see them letting Nylander walk but nothing surprises me with this team.

 

[Andy007]

I watched Keefe and Sammy in post game interviews. Scratching my head after listening to both of them. Keefe says it's something he needs to work out with Sanford. Sammy says it's all in his head. Really? Your positioning is the issue he begs to differ. Everyone watching, analysts, commentators and us can see he's all over the place. I said it last year. Nothing has changed it's just now the pucks are going in. Players haven't helped the defensive part of the game is non existent with some. That falls on Keefe and his system. If the players don't want to commit to both ends of the ice then get rid of them. Keefe's decisions are mind boggling too. Why was Lagesson out yesterday. I'm not crazy for him but better than Timmins and then he moves I believe Brodie and McCabe to their wrong sides. Why?

Keefe is a real puzzler as a coach.  I long to see what somebody else can do with this bunch.

I've felt for a while now that this group could use a real shock to the system. Something like a coaching change, or the trade of a "core" player, or maybe missing the playoffs. There just seems to be no growth, it's pretty much the same thing year after year. They get their points, make their money, and there's always next game or next year.

This _has_ to be Keefe's last shot with this group, doesn't it? Assuming he gets through the season, and unless they go on a real deep playoff run, it needs to change...right? Then again, maybe the big change will be when Nylander walks away as a UFA.

100% agree and I've said it multiple times the core needs to change and Keefe should have seen the door along with Dubas. We need a coach that can implement a more defensive system and 2 hold these guys accountable when they deserve it. He's had loads of time to get this team to the next level and hasn't. I don't see them letting Nylander walk but nothing surprises me with this team.

One of the main issues I have had with Keefe during his coaching tenure is that he really does not seem to have the capacity to adapt. There is no counter-balancing of or reaction to different opponents' coaching style or tactics. And I think that is also why the Leafs seem to fare well against the better/hotter teams and worse against the struggling/bottom tier teams: the former teams tend to try to match the skill and play more open hockey whereas the latter teams have to compensate for their lack of skill and play tight-checking, neutral zone trapping, playoffs-style hockey. Keefe has absolutely no answer for or idea of how to combat that style of play.