Sandin sent to the Marlies

[Deebo]

So, we're just going to assume that every move he makes is correct because he's not a moron?

Or you can evaluate deals on a case by case basis and assuming there was a better deal in this case makes little sense to me.

It seems doubtful that there was a deal to be made that didn't involve taking money back. They got out of a long term commitment and took only a 1 year deal back without adding any valuable sweeteners. I can't see how they were going to do any better than that in this case.

I love these kind of comments.  Yes, by all means you're right: none of us can legitimately criticize anyone or anything unless they are in our particular specialty.  Next time you get a burnt steak at your local grille I'm sure you'll just smile and eat it because you aren't a chef yourself.

In the case of a burnt steak, you know that the steak could have been made correctly

Criticize whatever you want, but it is reasonable to thnk the deal made to get out of the long term commitment to Zaitsev in the manner outlined above was the right deal to make. There is nothing to suggest that he could have gotten out of the contract without taking on a player like Ceci.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Sandin deserves to be on the roster more than Ceci.  This is a consequence of a Dubas decision that hurts the team.

Deserves isn't necessarily relevant right now.

It's real relevant if you are looking at a one-year window with Muzzin and Barrie.

Now, you would be absolutely right if Sandin had never played in the AHL.

If your vision is this season and only this season it may explain why you post on message boards and not manage professional sports teams.

I love these kind of comments.  Yes, by all means you're right: none of us can legitimately criticize anyone or anything unless they are in our particular specialty.  Next time you get a burnt steak at your local grille I'm sure you'll just smile and eat it because you aren't a chef yourself.

Well, I never said you can't criticize the move. I am allowed to contradict your criticism though. And to equate that to burnt steak is a bit of a stretch. I mean i guess it could relate if in some strange world the chef decided that the steak needed to be burnt so that it could grow into a better steak in the future.

Sandin needs to play...all the time. He doesn't need to sit on the bench and wonder what he's doing wrong, or why he's never on when the game is on the line. If all the Leafs thought of Sandin and his potential was that he had no real shot of being anything more than a #6 dman, he'd still be there.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-right-thing-sending-rasmus-sandin-back-ahl/

Sandin averaged 12:13 across his first six NHL games, with absolutely no power-play time and very limited use on the penalty kill, and he wasn?t likely to see that change any time soon. Baked into all the promise the coach could see when he smoothly executed a controlled zone exit or jumped forward to halt a rushing opponent was a fear that his development might stall during the long stretches of inactivity a third-pairing defenceman often endures.

The question wasn?t so much is Sandin ready to be a NHLer right now ? the eye test plus positive Corsi, scoring chance and expected goals numbers screamed ?yes? ? but might both the player and organization be better served by having him spend a second season with the Marlies?

Babcock came out of a meeting with Sandin and general manager Kyle Dubas unsure if the Swede even viewed the demotion as bad news.

?He knows how many minutes he was playing,? said Babcock. ?When you?re sitting there and you know you?re not getting to go out there and you?d like to be going out there, it?s not as much fun.

?Now when you?re 27 and that?s your job in the National League, that?s a lot of fun. When you?re 18 or whatever he is, it?s not a lot of fun.?

It's a pretty easy call.

And I take it Babcock also went on to explain why they even bothered to keep Sandin up in the first place, knowing as they did that he would just get sheltered minutes, little PK and no PP, blah blah blah.

So, if Abdelkader doesn't elbow him ... what?

Like a lot of Babcock's explanations, it's half-baked.  And if it's all about cap management, then it's back in Dubas's lap.

Here's a proposition: the Leafs defense is better when Sandin is in it. Does anyone want to argue that?

It's not half-baked. It happens all the time that young players are rewarded with couple NHL games and then returned to the AHL.

And no one that I know of is arguing that the defense is better when Sandin isn't in the line up. That's not the point. The point is development. Babcock isn't half baking anything. He's 100% telling the truth

 

[herman]

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2019/10/14/mike-babcock-on-rasmus-sandin-joining-the-marlies-the-guys-that-weve-overcooked-seem-to-get-to-a-higher-end-than-the-guys-we-rush/

 

[ZBBM]

The Leafs have one year, and one year only, where they are guaranteed to have both Barrie and Muzzin. They gave up a boatload to get those guys: Kadri, a first, and more.  So the strategy is to bolster that investment by ... lessening the skill elsewhere on defense?  Brilliant asset management.

Which sending Sandin down would be if he needed more seasoning to be NHL ready.  Which he doesn't.  Or of it looked likely that we'll re-sign both Barrie and Muzzin.  Which it doesn't.

Babcock is right that he won't get PP time.  No arguing that point, and it's good for him to play on it with the Marlies.  However, I don't see why he couldn't get some more PK looks.  Surely he'll be doing it at some point in his Leafs career.

Sandin by all accounts looks like he fits in the NHL already.  He's made some mistakes, and he'll make more, but every d-man does (Rielly, I'm looking at you).

We aren't the 08 Detroit Red Wings where Babcock could run with Nick Lidstrom and Chelios and Kronwall on defense so a guy like Sandin could be left to marinate in hollandaise sauce down in Grand Rapids with no downside whatsoever.  When you put in the balance scales the amount the Leafs have spent to get Barrie and Muzzin, against the increment of experience Sandin will gain by playing 1st-line minutes in his second AHL season, I don't think this move is a slam-dunk at all. 
To Babcock's credit, he didn't think so either, according to the interview.

And he left the door open to recalling him.  I hope they do.

 

[AvroArrow]

So, we're just going to assume that every move he makes is correct because he's not a moron?

I haven't made a single assertion yet.  And you're deflecting.

 

[Frank E]

The Leafs have one year, and one year only, where they are guaranteed to have both Barrie and Muzzin. They gave up a boatload to get those guys: Kadri, a first, and more.  So the strategy is to bolster that investment by ... lessening the skill elsewhere on defense?  Brilliant asset management.

Which sending Sandin down would be if he needed more seasoning to be NHL ready.  Which he doesn't.  Or of it looked likely that we'll re-sign both Barrie and Muzzin.  Which it doesn't.

Babcock is right that he won't get PP time.  No arguing that point, and it's good for him to play on it with the Marlies.  However, I don't see why he couldn't get some more PK looks.  Surely he'll be doing it at some point in his Leafs career.

Sandin by all accounts looks like he fits in the NHL already.  He's made some mistakes, and he'll make more, but every d-man does (Rielly, I'm looking at you).

We aren't the 08 Detroit Red Wings where Babcock could run with Nick Lidstrom and Chelios and Kronwall on defense so a guy like Sandin could be left to marinate in hollandaise sauce down in Grand Rapids with no downside whatsoever.  When you put in the balance scales the amount the Leafs have spent to get Barrie and Muzzin, against the increment of experience Sandin will gain by playing 1st-line minutes in his second AHL season, I don't think this move is a slam-dunk at all. 
To Babcock's credit, he didn't think so either, according to the interview.

And he left the door open to recalling him.  I hope they do.

I think what you're likely to see over the next few years is trial and error throughout the bottom 4-5 forwards and bottom 3 d-men.  I'd bet they're hoping to insert Sandin into that top-3 next season, and maybe keep Barrie (or Pietrangelo please).

They seem to want to sell us on Sandin working on his complete game at 20-25 minutes a night with the Marlies toward becoming one of those top-3 is more fruitful than him spending this season playing 10-12 minutes a game with limited special teams play. 

But, you might be right.  Maybe this isn't the right move, and maybe he is better off with the big club pushing Muzzin and Rielly for ice-time this regular season. 

 

[herman]

You know there?s nothing stopping them from bringing Sandin back up for the playoffs if the Leafs are in position to capitalize on this once in a lifetime opportunity to have Muzzin and Barrie in the lineup.

He was drafted as an SHL player, loaned to the Soo, and is not beholden to the CHL rules where the <20 player needs to play junior. Sending him down now is not the death sentence on his career and is not the team throwing in the towel on their season you're making this out to be, ZBBM.

If anything, the Leafs just gained much needed flexibility on the roster.

 

[Frank E]

You know there?s nothing stopping them from bringing Sandin back up for the playoffs if the Leafs are in position to capitalize on this once in a lifetime opportunity to have Muzzin and Barrie in the lineup.

In ZBBM's defence here, they did spend a fair bit to get Barrie, and both him and Muzzin are on expiring deals that aren't renewable at their current AAV...so let's not pretend that this season isn't an opportunity for them to aim high, given it's arguably the strongest top-3 (I'm not including Ceci) as they've had during the MNM tenure. 

But to answer your question, I indeed understand that they can call up Sandin.

 

[Guilt Trip]

Lots of good points on both sides. Bottom line for me is simply this. He's not good enough yet to take time away from Muzzin and Rielly against the other team's top guys. He's very good, but not ready to be in our top 4 just yet. He needs to play like a top 4 and he'll get that on the Marlies. He'll probably end up playing 10 mins more a game there and in all situations. I think he'll be back up before the season is over.

 

[herman]

In ZBBM's defence here, they did spend a fair bit to get Barrie, and both him and Muzzin are on expiring deals that aren't renewable at their current AAV...so let's not pretend that this season isn't an opportunity for them to aim high, given it's arguably the strongest top-3 (I'm not including Ceci) as they've had during the MNM tenure. 

But to answer your question, I indeed understand that they can call up Sandin.

But I didn't ask a question

The Leafs have one year, and one year only, where they are guaranteed to have both Barrie and Muzzin. They gave up a boatload to get those guys: Kadri, a first, and more.  So the strategy is to bolster that investment by ... lessening the skill elsewhere on defense?  Brilliant asset management.

I think the point here isn't to decrease depth overall, but to redistribute skill balance. Sandin is a far better offensive option than anyone outside our top 3, but he's only getting 9-14 minutes because he's not consistent enough defensively to be in the top-4. His minutes were tightly curated already. So if the bottom pair's job is to play safe and PK, then Sandin is wasted in those minutes. Drawing in Marincin (or whichever PK specialist) allows you to rest Rielly on PKs and let him go ham on PP.

I think we fuss a lot about October lineups, but they're almost always different from March/April. We're actually getting different looks and cycling depth and keeping everyone motivated and pushing for opportunity and not playing Ben Harpur, so I think the current consternation is overblown.

 

[Bullfrog]

You know there?s nothing stopping them from bringing Sandin back up for the playoffs if the Leafs are in position to capitalize on this once in a lifetime opportunity to have Muzzin and Barrie in the lineup.

In ZBBM's defence here, they did spend a fair bit to get Barrie, and both him and Muzzin are on expiring deals that aren't renewable at their current AAV...so let's not pretend that this season isn't an opportunity for them to aim high, given it's arguably the strongest top-3 (I'm not including Ceci) as they've had during the MNM tenure. 

But to answer your question, I indeed understand that they can call up Sandin.

What's interesting is how things have switched. While Marleau was still on the roster, it was assumed this year was going to be hard to compete due to the cap crunch. Now, it's being framed as an opportunity year. A total flip of expectations.

 

[ZBBM]

Frank put my main point very well.  And herman, I never said I thought they were throwing in the towel with this one roster move.

But here again, this is where Ceci is gumming up the works.  Our five best defensemen at the moment are:

Rielly
Muzzin
Barrie
Dermott
Sandin

If Sandin is not a fit for the 3rd pair (for all the reasons you state, herman), but could look good (maybe very good) on a second pair, then why not at least try something like

Rielly-Muzzin
Sandin-Barrie
Dermott-Marincin

where the icetime between the second and third pairs is more balanced (or maybe even completely balanced) so Dermott doesn't languish?

Of course the obstacle to even trying that is Ceci.  He's overpaid for the averageness that he brings but you can't have his dough sitting in the pressbox.  Maybe you put him instead of Marincin, but I think Marincin is better.

And in this scenario I would gradually ramp up Sandin's PK time.

Seems to me that the default principle should be: you ice your best team.  All the other considerations (getting 3 years of Sandin at less than 1M for example) have to be taken into account, but there had better be some super-compelling reasons to override the principle.

 

[ZBBM]

You know there?s nothing stopping them from bringing Sandin back up for the playoffs if the Leafs are in position to capitalize on this once in a lifetime opportunity to have Muzzin and Barrie in the lineup.

In ZBBM's defence here, they did spend a fair bit to get Barrie, and both him and Muzzin are on expiring deals that aren't renewable at their current AAV...so let's not pretend that this season isn't an opportunity for them to aim high, given it's arguably the strongest top-3 (I'm not including Ceci) as they've had during the MNM tenure. 

But to answer your question, I indeed understand that they can call up Sandin.

What's interesting is how things have switched. While Marleau was still on the roster, it was assumed this year was going to be hard to compete due to the cap crunch. Now, it's being framed as an opportunity year. A total flip of expectations.

Yes, the Kadri trade turned things on their head.

 

[Bullfrog]

I'd be more cautious with calling Sandin one of our top five defensemen. He very well may be, but he's only played one pre-season and six NHL games and is only 19 years old.

 

[ZBBM]

I'd be more cautious with calling Sandin one of our top five defensemen. He very well may be, but he's only played one pre-season and six NHL games and is only 19 years old.

Point taken.  Still, it sure looks that way.  He bleeds ice water, which is your #1 prerequisite for a kickass defenseman.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Can I say that Cody Ceci, Dubas' acquisition of Cody Ceci, and Babcock's usage of Cody Ceci are all bad AND that demoting Sandin isn't really that big of a deal?

 

[herman]

I think Sandin is going to be really good. I'd like to see him take those shutdown AHL minutes for the next few months first before pushing his NHL deployment outside of the bottom pair.

I'd like to see Dermott over Ceci when he eases into his return from injury. Not sure Muzzin-Dermott is the shutdown pairing Babcock will ice but Muzzin-Rielly, Dermott-Barrie might be crazy fun.

 

[Guilt Trip]

Can I say that Cody Ceci, Dubas' acquisition of Cody Ceci, and Babcock's usage of Cody Ceci are all bad AND that demoting Sandin isn't really that big of a deal?

You certainly can.