sens @ Maple Leafs - Nov. 8th, 7:00pm - SN, Fan 590

[dappleganger]

That was a really bad game from Woll.  But despite his high GAA he's 3rd in the lead in goals saved above expected at 7.4

The reality is this teams defense has regressed significantly.

Domi was a bad defensive player when we signed him.  That's to be expected.  I didn't expect Bertuzzi to be this useless.  He had a decent game yesterday offensively but he's not good defensively and coupling that with Nylander/Tavares who have consistently been a problem at 5on5 is just bizarre to me to have them paired up.  It's playing the salary instead of the lineup.

The 4th line is completely unusable.  Kampf is significantly overpaid for what he brings.  Reaves is significantly overpaid for what he brings in both salary and years. (Let's not forget that Reaves is a 35+ contract too!).  Reaves out on the ice trying to start a fight in the final few seconds was embarrassing.  You do nothing all game.  He's beyond useless. Waive him yesterday.

I still kind of like Gregor but we are talking about a 12th/13th forward playing with two anchors so anything that he can actually do is completely wasted.

The defensemen are also a mess.  McCabe will help a bit when he comes back although he's now missed 6 games (almost 7) and counting so who knows when he will actually dress.

Liljegren is gone for months and high ankle sprains are notorious for having players not feel right for a long time.

Lagesson's been ok but I think we see stretches of why he only has 66 NHL games at 27.  I like him as a 7th defenseman.

Timmins is working toward coming back but that's just taking Benoit/Lagesson out of the lineup when he returns. 

Klingberg is unplayable right now.  He's not just bad defensively, he's making other players worse.  I can't remember seeing a defenseman be out of position as much as him in the last few years. 

Gio is 40.  We can't change that.  He still has really good games and then has games like last night where he isn't as good.  He keeps getting overrelied on because we have no other depth/options.  At 40 we are asking him to be our 2nd/3rd best defenseman.

I don't know where we go with this team.  Yes, last year they had a slow start too.  In October last year the core 4 had 13 combined goals in 40 combined games.  This year they had 20 in a combined 36.  So we are having a mediocre start with our big guns firing.  The core four have 30 goals on the season now and that would have them 26th in NHL team scoring.

Connor Timmins scored at a 45 point pace when with the Leafs last season and showed some offensive prowess in the pre-season too so maybe there is some hope for optimism there.

 

[Redleaf]

That was a really bad game from Woll.  But despite his high GAA he's 3rd in the lead in goals saved above expected at 7.4

The reality is this teams defense has regressed significantly.

Domi was a bad defensive player when we signed him.  That's to be expected.  I didn't expect Bertuzzi to be this useless.  He had a decent game yesterday offensively but he's not good defensively and coupling that with Nylander/Tavares who have consistently been a problem at 5on5 is just bizarre to me to have them paired up.  It's playing the salary instead of the lineup.

The 4th line is completely unusable.  Kampf is significantly overpaid for what he brings.  Reaves is significantly overpaid for what he brings in both salary and years. (Let's not forget that Reaves is a 35+ contract too!).  Reaves out on the ice trying to start a fight in the final few seconds was embarrassing.  You do nothing all game.  He's beyond useless. Waive him yesterday.

I still kind of like Gregor but we are talking about a 12th/13th forward playing with two anchors so anything that he can actually do is completely wasted.

The defensemen are also a mess.  McCabe will help a bit when he comes back although he's now missed 6 games (almost 7) and counting so who knows when he will actually dress.

Liljegren is gone for months and high ankle sprains are notorious for having players not feel right for a long time.

Lagesson's been ok but I think we see stretches of why he only has 66 NHL games at 27.  I like him as a 7th defenseman.

Timmins is working toward coming back but that's just taking Benoit/Lagesson out of the lineup when he returns. 

Klingberg is unplayable right now.  He's not just bad defensively, he's making other players worse.  I can't remember seeing a defenseman be out of position as much as him in the last few years. 

Gio is 40.  We can't change that.  He still has really good games and then has games like last night where he isn't as good.  He keeps getting overrelied on because we have no other depth/options.  At 40 we are asking him to be our 2nd/3rd best defenseman.

I don't know where we go with this team.  Yes, last year they had a slow start too.  In October last year the core 4 had 13 combined goals in 40 combined games.  This year they had 20 in a combined 36.  So we are having a mediocre start with our big guns firing.  The core four have 30 goals on the season now and that would have them 26th in NHL team scoring.

I agree with almost everything said here. I can?t fathom most of the decisions made in the summer by Treliving and ultimately Shanahan, who knows this teams weaknesses well.

Why would they agree to acquire more offensive minded players who can?t handle defensive duties, while at the same time not even remotely begin to address the D-core weakened in the off season. It feels like the application of small bandages on multiple shark bites. It doesn?t make sense.

Surely they could see the deficiencies on paper and that this teams defence would be drastically worse. Yet here we are seeing it ourselves on the ice already, and only 13 games in.

 

[herman]

https://x.com/hockeystatcards/status/1722446095760883977

 

[CarltonTheBear]

To a certain extent you could excuse Klingberg's defensive problems if he was at least producing some offence to cover it up. But 5 points in 13 games, 0 in his last 7 games, and 0 goals in total is just terrible production for a guy being given his opportunities. I mean he scored at a significantly higher pace last season with Anaheim and there was nobody even close to a PPG there. The second Timmins gets back into the line-up he needs to be a waivers candidate if his play doesn't turn around shortly.

 

[cabber24]

Here's my sky is falling comment, we fired the wrong guy this summer.

 

[Zee]

That was a really bad game from Woll.  But despite his high GAA he's 3rd in the lead in goals saved above expected at 7.4

The reality is this teams defense has regressed significantly.

Domi was a bad defensive player when we signed him.  That's to be expected.  I didn't expect Bertuzzi to be this useless.  He had a decent game yesterday offensively but he's not good defensively and coupling that with Nylander/Tavares who have consistently been a problem at 5on5 is just bizarre to me to have them paired up.  It's playing the salary instead of the lineup.

The 4th line is completely unusable.  Kampf is significantly overpaid for what he brings.  Reaves is significantly overpaid for what he brings in both salary and years. (Let's not forget that Reaves is a 35+ contract too!).  Reaves out on the ice trying to start a fight in the final few seconds was embarrassing.  You do nothing all game.  He's beyond useless. Waive him yesterday.

I still kind of like Gregor but we are talking about a 12th/13th forward playing with two anchors so anything that he can actually do is completely wasted.

The defensemen are also a mess.  McCabe will help a bit when he comes back although he's now missed 6 games (almost 7) and counting so who knows when he will actually dress.

Liljegren is gone for months and high ankle sprains are notorious for having players not feel right for a long time.

Lagesson's been ok but I think we see stretches of why he only has 66 NHL games at 27.  I like him as a 7th defenseman.

Timmins is working toward coming back but that's just taking Benoit/Lagesson out of the lineup when he returns. 

Klingberg is unplayable right now.  He's not just bad defensively, he's making other players worse.  I can't remember seeing a defenseman be out of position as much as him in the last few years. 

Gio is 40.  We can't change that.  He still has really good games and then has games like last night where he isn't as good.  He keeps getting overrelied on because we have no other depth/options.  At 40 we are asking him to be our 2nd/3rd best defenseman.

I don't know where we go with this team.  Yes, last year they had a slow start too.  In October last year the core 4 had 13 combined goals in 40 combined games.  This year they had 20 in a combined 36.  So we are having a mediocre start with our big guns firing.  The core four have 30 goals on the season now and that would have them 26th in NHL team scoring.

Great points.  The loss of McCabe and Liljegren (and a lesser extent Timmins) is really hurting the back end right now.  Klingberg can't be trusted out there, I would rather take my chances with a healthy Timmins back there, I have no idea why Treliving thought it was a good idea to bring this guy in.

As you said the forwards that were brought in are not strong defensively and are not really contributing offensively either so it's a lose-lose.

I think this team CAN play better, they are at a low point right now, but how much better remains to be seen.  I'm not concerned about Woll at all, but Samsonov?  Yikes, he has to get it back on track so the Leafs don't have to worry about which goalie is starting any given game.

 

[cabber24]

The head-scratcher-signings this summer are in fact head-scratcher-signings.

10 seconds into the job on July 1st the new GM makes a "splash" Reeves and Klingberg.

 

[Zee]

The head-scratcher-signings this summer are in fact head-scratcher-signings.

They have to do SOMETHING soon.  I can't imagine just staying the course here. 

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I hope everyone who wanted to shoot Holl into the sun are happy with the alternative.

I'd say Giordano actually looking like he is 40 and Brodie falling off a cliff is much more contributory to the team's issues than replacing a stiff in Holl with another stiff in Klingberg.

This is Giordano's first noticeably bad game of the season. 

I was very concerned about Gio before the season after the playoffs that he's had but I think he's been fine at 5-on-5 (this game aside of course). And at times even better than fine really. He's taken the 1st pairing PK spot that Holl's held down (very well) for years though and there's been some more noticeable issues there. That's a tough role obviously for him to take on at his age.

I've seen lots and lots and lots of complaints about Brodie this season and I don't really get them. He's certainly not peak T.J. Brodie anymore but the puck rarely goes into the net when he's on the ice and that's a pretty big plus on this team right now. If anything I think the team is going to need to split him from Rielly soon to give the other pairs some help.

 

[Zee]

Good to see we all over-reacted to Woll's fast start.

Woll is fine. Just a bad game.

Just a bad game?  Here are his last 4 starts:

Nov 8, 23 vs OTT L 27 6 .778
Nov 6, 23 vs TBL W 19 1 .947
Nov 4, 23 vs BUF L 40 5 .875
Oct 31, 23 vs LAK L 27 4 .852

It's not a bad start, it's a regression to the mean.  He isn't a goalie of the future, he's a failed Leaf prospect.

Oh come on.  I get you're upset but this is just silly.

No kidding. Some like to overreact....it's actually pretty comical.

Thanks anti-azzuri.  Love your objectivity.  Just because you want everything to be positive doesn't make it positive.  A person who never wants to see flaws in something can be annoying too as well as comical.

Where did I say they didn't have flaws? They do but the overreactions after goals/losses by some here is funny as hell. Trade everyone, team's embarrassing, failed prospect, etc., etc.

Well I'm glad you are the type of person who laughs when other people are upset.

Tell you what I am going to do.  I'm going to cancel my monthly Patreon payment to this site, and just stop coming by.  That way you don't have to read my "comical" and "funny as hell" rants about the Leafs when they suffer a loss, and I don't have to be taken to task and talked down too by some elitist positive thinker just because I have a negative emotional reaction to the way the Leafs play.

I wish you all the best.   

No reason to get like this.  At the end of the day it's just a game and a hockey team.  I've been watching the Leafs almost 50 years so I've run the gamut of emotions for this team and it's just not worth it.  Sure I would be over the moon if they ever win a Cup, but i'm not going to let their poor play dictate my mood anymore.  There are way more important things in life.  Hockey is a distraction, can be great at times, but shouldn't bring you down and get you all pissed off either.

We all have different opinions on this team, it's what makes this site worth coming to.  Some are constantly negative, some are overly optimistic and a bunch are in the middle with a wait and see attitude.  It's still early, changes can happen.  Imagine how we would have felt as St. Louis fans the year they were DEAD LAST in the NHL in January and somehow still won the Cup that year? You never know what can change on a team.

 

[Bender]

Here's my sky is falling comment, we fired the wrong guy this summer.

I do think Klingberg/Reaves hasn't been a good use of cap space, but it's hard to see how different Dubas could've been unless he traded one of the core 4, but it's hard to know if the team would've become better. I didn't see him keeping Kerfoot, he got rid of Engvall, and Sandin who'd prove useful right now, they were gonna lose ROR anyway, Schenn was always too expensive etc. We walked too many guys for years without reasonable internal replacements. The roots of bad management go way beyond Brad who just got here.

 

[Guilt Trip]

At the end of the day it's just a game and a hockey team

There are way more important things in life.  Hockey is a distraction, can be great at times, but shouldn't bring you down and get you all pissed off either.

Absolutely. I've said literally the same thing for years. It's hockey/entertainment. What will you get if they win it all? You're not making the millions or getting your name on the cup so why get bent about a game you have no control over? Enjoy the ride, it's a long season. Win or lose, my summer's are always great.

 

[herman]

https://x.com/markhmasters/status/1722460533209563634

 

[herman]

https://twitter.com/frankcorrado22/status/1722637830868848759
Kampf lost coverage here, but the basic premise is, he feels the need to do more than his job (play defenseman+). Again, I think Reaves positionally fine but not in position to truly help.

https://x.com/JhanHky/status/1722467900013899978

 

[Zee]

Here's my sky is falling comment, we fired the wrong guy this summer.

I do think Klingberg/Reaves hasn't been a good use of cap space, but it's hard to see how different Dubas could've been unless he traded one of the core 4, but it's hard to know if the team would've become better. I didn't see him keeping Kerfoot, he got rid of Engvall, and Sandin who'd prove useful right now, they were gonna lose ROR anyway, Schenn was always too expensive etc. We walked too many guys for years without reasonable internal replacements. The roots of bad management go way beyond Brad who just got here.

Based on Dubas's comments before he was let go it sure sounded like he was open to a trade of the core 4 (my guess would have been Marner) but we'll never know now what the team might have looked like.

 

[Chris]

Tell you what I am going to do.  I'm going to cancel my monthly Patreon payment to this site, and just stop coming by.  That way you don't have to read my "comical" and "funny as hell" rants about the Leafs when they suffer a loss, and I don't have to be taken to task and talked down too by some elitist positive thinker just because I have a negative emotional reaction to the way the Leafs play.

I wish you all the best.   

I've been where you are. Haven't posted in 2 years. Not sure I'm going to be posting much but just wanted to say, hope you'll reconsider but I do understand if you don't.

No reason to get like this.  At the end of the day it's just a game and a hockey team.  I've been watching the Leafs almost 50 years so I've run the gamut of emotions for this team and it's just not worth it.  Sure I would be over the moon if they ever win a Cup, but i'm not going to let their poor play dictate my mood anymore.  There are way more important things in life.  Hockey is a distraction, can be great at times, but shouldn't bring you down and get you all pissed off either.

We all have different opinions on this team, it's what makes this site worth coming to.  Some are constantly negative, some are overly optimistic and a bunch are in the middle with a wait and see attitude.  It's still early, changes can happen.  Imagine how we would have felt as St. Louis fans the year they were DEAD LAST in the NHL in January and somehow still won the Cup that year? You never know what can change on a team.

I've finally accepted that this team is just too flawed and not championship-caliber. I mean, maybe if the stars truly align and half the Vegas team winds up on LTIR come playoff time (same for Colorado and several other teams), and Matthews goes on an incredible heater and one of the goalies becomes...well, you know what the chances of all of that are.

We all know the problems - too much money tied up in a few offensive players who don't have that extra "compete" gene, haphazardly constructed lower two lines, aging defenders who are not good defensively, one goalie who is a head case and the other is young and injury prone. I'm hoping that when the Tavares contract runs out, maybe...maybe at that point the team can be retooled, money redistributed, maybe one of the core forwards (Marner or Nylander) gets traded to balance out the rest of the team. Maybe at that point a new "window" opens up for this team. Until then, I am just watching purely for entertainment and no longer investing as much of myself into a group of players (note that I don't use the word team) that doesn't seem to care enough about each other.

BTW, someone had posted something about Nylander talking about "adversity." What adversity has this group ever really faced? More and more I find myself thinking they'd be much better off if they'd actually missed the playoffs once or twice along the way. Maybe this year.

 

[ZBBM]

https://twitter.com/hockeystatcards/status/1722446095760883977

What this tells me is that Knies sucks.

 

[ZBBM]

Tell you what I am going to do.  I'm going to cancel my monthly Patreon payment to this site, and just stop coming by.  That way you don't have to read my "comical" and "funny as hell" rants about the Leafs when they suffer a loss, and I don't have to be taken to task and talked down too by some elitist positive thinker just because I have a negative emotional reaction to the way the Leafs play.

I wish you all the best.   

I've been where you are. Haven't posted in 2 years. Not sure I'm going to be posting much but just wanted to say, hope you'll reconsider but I do understand if you don't.

No reason to get like this.  At the end of the day it's just a game and a hockey team.  I've been watching the Leafs almost 50 years so I've run the gamut of emotions for this team and it's just not worth it.  Sure I would be over the moon if they ever win a Cup, but i'm not going to let their poor play dictate my mood anymore.  There are way more important things in life.  Hockey is a distraction, can be great at times, but shouldn't bring you down and get you all pissed off either.

We all have different opinions on this team, it's what makes this site worth coming to.  Some are constantly negative, some are overly optimistic and a bunch are in the middle with a wait and see attitude.  It's still early, changes can happen.  Imagine how we would have felt as St. Louis fans the year they were DEAD LAST in the NHL in January and somehow still won the Cup that year? You never know what can change on a team.

I've finally accepted that this team is just too flawed and not championship-caliber. I mean, maybe if the stars truly align and half the Vegas team winds up on LTIR come playoff time (same for Colorado and several other teams), and Matthews goes on an incredible heater and one of the goalies becomes...well, you know what the chances of all of that are.

We all know the problems - too much money tied up in a few offensive players who don't have that extra "compete" gene, haphazardly constructed lower two lines, aging defenders who are not good defensively, one goalie who is a head case and the other is young and injury prone. I'm hoping that when the Tavares contract runs out, maybe...maybe at that point the team can be retooled, money redistributed, maybe one of the core forwards (Marner or Nylander) gets traded to balance out the rest of the team. Maybe at that point a new "window" opens up for this team. Until then, I am just watching purely for entertainment and no longer investing as much of myself into a group of players (note that I don't use the word team) that doesn't seem to care enough about each other.

BTW, someone had posted something about Nylander talking about "adversity." What adversity has this group ever really faced? More and more I find myself thinking they'd be much better off if they'd actually missed the playoffs once or twice along the way. Maybe this year.

This is a darned good post.

 

[Highlander]

Good to see we all over-reacted to Woll's fast start.

Woll is fine. Just a bad game.

Just a bad game?  Here are his last 4 starts:

Nov 8, 23 vs OTT L 27 6 .778
Nov 6, 23 vs TBL W 19 1 .947
Nov 4, 23 vs BUF L 40 5 .875
Oct 31, 23 vs LAK L 27 4 .852

It's not a bad start, it's a regression to the mean.  He isn't a goalie of the future, he's a failed Leaf prospect.

Oh come on.  I get you're upset but this is just silly.

No kidding. Some like to overreact....it's actually pretty comical.

Thanks anti-azzuri.  Love your objectivity.  Just because you want everything to be positive doesn't make it positive.  A person who never wants to see flaws in something can be annoying too as well as comical.

Where did I say they didn't have flaws? They do but the overreactions after goals/losses by some here is funny as hell. Trade everyone, team's embarrassing, failed prospect, etc., etc.

Well I'm glad you are the type of person who laughs when other people are upset.

Tell you what I am going to do.  I'm going to cancel my monthly Patreon payment to this site, and just stop coming by.  That way you don't have to read my "comical" and "funny as hell" rants about the Leafs when they suffer a loss, and I don't have to be taken to task and talked down too by some elitist positive thinker just because I have a negative emotional reaction to the way the Leafs play.

I wish you all the best.   

No reason to get like this.  At the end of the day it's just a game and a hockey team.  I've been watching the Leafs almost 50 years so I've run the gamut of emotions for this team and it's just not worth it.  Sure I would be over the moon if they ever win a Cup, but i'm not going to let their poor play dictate my mood anymore.  There are way more important things in life.  Hockey is a distraction, can be great at times, but shouldn't bring you down and get you all pissed off either.

We all have different opinions on this team, it's what makes this site worth coming to.  Some are constantly negative, some are overly optimistic and a bunch are in the middle with a wait and see attitude.  It's still early, changes can happen.  Imagine how we would have felt as St. Louis fans the year they were DEAD LAST in the NHL in January and somehow still won the Cup that year? You never know what can change on a team.

Its entertainment, that's all, if you make something more than that, then this is you reality. If its not fun, don't do it, simple. If its painful and heartbreaking from you to watch the Leafs then stop doing it. Simple.
I have been watching this team for most of my 67 years and it been a lot worse than this. 
Now, I simply enjoy watching the amazing skill and speed of the game.  Simple

 

[Highlander]

Good to see we all over-reacted to Woll's fast start.

Woll is fine. Just a bad game.

Just a bad game?  Here are his last 4 starts:

Nov 8, 23 vs OTT L 27 6 .778
Nov 6, 23 vs TBL W 19 1 .947
Nov 4, 23 vs BUF L 40 5 .875
Oct 31, 23 vs LAK L 27 4 .852

It's not a bad start, it's a regression to the mean.  He isn't a goalie of the future, he's a failed Leaf prospect.

Oh come on.  I get you're upset but this is just silly.

Look, we've seen this play out before, many times.  Pogge, Gustavson, Reimer, Sparks...and the list goes on.  Sure other teams get good goalies that come up from the minors and do amazing this.  I get how Leafs fans think it's possible, but  this is the Leafs though.  That doesn't happen for this team.  Why would it?

Can you tell me that you looked at his game tonight and think that Woll is destined to become a top 15 goalie in the League?  If we can all jump on the bandwagon after 2 good games, why and I not able to remove the screws from the wheels on said bandwagon after three really bad games? 

He's young, a rookie.  The promise you see is his frame, flexibility, and positioning.  I have no idea whether he'll pan out as a top 15, but calling him a failure on the basis of 4 recent games is just nonsensical.

Wasting your time ZBBM...Woll's a failure...all over for him. Team sucks too.

What GT,  I expect more from my positive friend. Woll is going to be a great one.