Steve Stamkos?
- Thread starter sickbeast
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TBLeafer said:
The reason I asked why you thought the Leafs didn't win a cup with Sundin, is because adding Stamkos is like adding a Sundin. If the Leafs couldn't build a team around Sundin to reliably compete for the cup year in and year out through trades and UFA acquisitions in that era, then how is it going to be easier now? In that era, pretty much every high profiled player ended up one of 6 teams (Toronto, New York, Philadelphia, Colorado, Detroit, Dallas).
So one time with Sundin the Leafs almost made it to the Stanley cup final. What would you rather have, that situation, or one where for a string of 10 to 15 years, the Leafs are a team that has a legitimate shot at winning the cup?
Significantly Insignificant said:
Not the same at all though. Different era and FAR different team build philosophy. I appreciated the fact that we could compete for the cup and was saddened by the fact that we fell short like 29 other teams do each and every year.
Difference now is that we ain't trading Matthews to get Stamkos. Our BEST internal players are just about to START their NHL careers.
Minnessota has been a playoff team every year SINCE adding Zach Parise...
Quite a similar scenario with how he viewed the Devils and how the Devils viewed him, too...
https://www.nhl.com/news/free-agent-zach-parise-wants-to-stay-with-devils-has-no-desire-to-play-for-rival-rangers/c-634640
Quite a similar scenario with how he viewed the Devils and how the Devils viewed him, too...
https://www.nhl.com/news/free-agent-zach-parise-wants-to-stay-with-devils-has-no-desire-to-play-for-rival-rangers/c-634640
bustaheims
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TBLeafer said:
In two of those seasons, they snuck in as the lowest seed, and in none of them did they really come close to making out of the 2nd round. They've stagnated. Not exactly a model worth following.
bustaheims
Active member
TBLeafer said:
You can keep repeating that as much as you want, but it still doesn't guarantee we'll have better NHLers. And, Dumba, Brodin, and Granlund were very highly thought of prospects. The Leafs top 3 may be better, but not that significantly. And, the Wild also added Suter that summer. Their experienced NHLers are/were better than what the Leafs have - especially their goaltending, which is/was miles ahead of what the Leafs have.
McGarnagle
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TBLeafer said:
And we don't know how good our "best" internal players truly are. For all the optimism, the Marlies were good, but it wasn't as if anyone other than Nylander looked like he'd outclassed the AHL. It just doesn't make sense to me to commit to a direction like Stamkos.
The organization has convinced the fans to accept the prospect of a complete rebuild, and 2 years... yes, 2 years in, I'd have a hard time of seeing them sign Stamkos as a sign of anything but compromise to Rogers and Bell. We've all seen the positives that have already come from the tough decision to turn over the organization. I'd be really disappointed to see them abandon a long term strategy of creating a powerhouse in favour of reverting back to trying to be a perennial wild card hopeful.
TBLeafer said:
This is where our difference in philosophy lies. I don't want to cheer for a team that competes for a cup. I want to cheer for a team that when they don't make it to the cup finals, it's considered an upset, or that the Leafs choked by not getting there. The years that the Sundin lead teams didn't make it to the cup final, it wasn't a choke job. Most of those years, when the Leafs got beat out, most pundits said "yeah that's about right". I want to cheer for a truly great team, not a team that is satisfied with making it in to the playoffs and if luck holds might win a cup through an upset. As a fan, I don't like the fact that for the best possible odds in the draft, the Leafs have to lose now, but I understand that the losing is the best possible way for the Leafs to build a powerhouse of a team.
TBLeafer said:
You missed my point. You don't get to where I would like to see the Leafs get too without getting multiple lottery picks. I will stomach the Leafs being bad next year because it gives them the highest percentage at getting a player like Nolan Patrick or Timothy Liljegren. That's one more good young player in the stable. And if they are bad the year after that and get a high pick in 2018, then I will stomach that too, because when these players fully mature and start to reach their prime years all together, then they will more than likely be one of the most dominate teams in the NHL. Then they will rise up the standings. Bubble team at first, then in the playoffs, and then Stanley cup contender. Their cap will be manageable because these players will all be close together in age so some will still be on entry level deals, some will have just signed their second contracts. And if this is done right, then there should still be prospects on the farm that are pushing to make the Leafs, and those are the assets that you can use to turn in to those complimentary pieces that can push a team over the top. The organisation would now be on solid footing. It would have a pipeline of prospects, and a high quality NHL team. That's the sustainable winning team that I would like the Leafs to become. It takes losing right now to get to that point.
bustaheims
Active member
Significantly Insignificant said:
Exactly. The Leafs aren't trying to build a team that can maybe make a Cup run or two. They're trying to build the foundation of a team that can be a consistent Cup threat for an extended period of time. That's going to take a lot of time and patience, and it's going to mean passing on some opportunities to speed things up by adding significant pieces through free agency. It's going to mean making shrewd deals rather than splashy ones. They need to build a prospect pipeline, so, when the team is ready, they can either trade some of them to fill holes or pick up the complementary pieces they need, or so they can move the complementary pieces they have to pick up assets that help to keep the pipeline flowing while filling the roster spot with an equally or more talented young player on a cheap entry-level contract. Shanahan has been transparent about this since he came on board. This is going to be a slow process. There aren't going to be any quick fixes, shortcuts, or any of the like. Big pieces won't be added until it's time to add big pieces - and, as Babcock said, now is not that time. So, strap yourselves in, because it's going to a longer and bumpier ride than you've been expecting.
McGarnagle said:
Yes but this situation is different than the past. JFJ and Burke tried to speed up the rebuild by selling our futures for now. That bit us in the ass big time. In Stamkos' situation, all we're losing is cap space (which may or may not be valuable in the future). For all we know, all our "blue-chip" prospects could wither under the Toronto Sun (pun intended) and we'd be left with a ton of cap space that's useless. So you're assuming we're going to use all that cap space which is an unknown whereas Stamkos is closer to a known commodity that will provide an immediate impact offensively and provide a stable leader to guide the younglings. I see it as a good thing to sign him.
TBLeafer said:
Did you not just say two posts ago that it takes more than one lottery pick to start winning? So what happens if the Leafs don't sign Stamkos? What's the contingency plan there? You don't answer any of the questions that the other posters are asking of you. You make a smart remark that dismisses the holes that other posters bring up in your grand plan of:
Step 1: Sign Stamkos
Step 2: Maybe win a cup someday somehow
After the Leafs get Stamkos and he magically takes us to the second round of the playoffs next year, then what? How do the Leafs get better? Where does the talent upgrade happen from? You say internally, but how can it happen internally when the Leafs are picking in the mid to late stages of the first round? Look at the teams that are in the Stanley Cup final. Look at those rosters. How can the Leafs, even with Stamkos, compete with those rosters. They don't have the pieces that they need in order to beat those teams in a seven game series, and there is a high probability that they won't be able to get those pieces if the Leafs are drafting in the mid to late rounds.
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