Steve Stamkos?

[herman]

[quote author=herman]
As a fun exercise, TBLeafer, can you find me what they've said alluding to them NOT signing Stamkos?

Provide my own counterpoint.  Interesting.

The now famous Babcock quote, which I don't think I have to restate, but it comes down to how you interpret the use of the term "usually".

This article which again has Lou saying things in the beginning of the interview where on their own can lead one to think they aren't going to pursue Stamkos, but then goes on to say things about there being no hesitation about adding a player that makes the team better if that player becomes available.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/gm-lou-lamoriello-sees-promise-maple-leafs/

I can come up with more I'm sure, but when you look at the "whole" there is NOTHING definitive one way or another.  There are no closed doors.

You show me where anyone from the Leafs management definitively utters the words: "We will not be pursuing Stamkos if he becomes a free agent as he is not in our future team building plans at this time." 

I will end the debate for signing Stamkos.
[/quote]

It's a useful exercise I play in my own mind when I'm formulating an idea. Stress testing something before it goes public, right? Inevitably, someone might still find something wrong with my line of thinking, and help me see that, and I am the better for it after.

Management isn't actually allowed to say anything definitive about Stamkos because he is still a player under contract with Tampa Bay until July 1st. Saying anything prior would amount to tampering.

The article you referenced highlights how this management team does things: no stone is unturned, yet no premature declarations are made until the deal is done; all moves will be made with the long-term plan of sustained championship contention in mind.

As Lou said regarding the decision about the 1st overall pick, if there is still time to make a decision, we use all of it.

 

[TBLeafer]

[quote author=herman]
As a fun exercise, TBLeafer, can you find me what they've said alluding to them NOT signing Stamkos?

Provide my own counterpoint.  Interesting.

The now famous Babcock quote, which I don't think I have to restate, but it comes down to how you interpret the use of the term "usually".

This article which again has Lou saying things in the beginning of the interview where on their own can lead one to think they aren't going to pursue Stamkos, but then goes on to say things about there being no hesitation about adding a player that makes the team better if that player becomes available.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/gm-lou-lamoriello-sees-promise-maple-leafs/

I can come up with more I'm sure, but when you look at the "whole" there is NOTHING definitive one way or another.  There are no closed doors.

You show me where anyone from the Leafs management definitively utters the words: "We will not be pursuing Stamkos if he becomes a free agent as he is not in our future team building plans at this time." 

I will end the debate for signing Stamkos.

It's a useful exercise I play in my own mind when I'm formulating an idea. Stress testing something before it goes public, right? Inevitably, someone might still find something wrong with my line of thinking, and help me see that, and I am the better for it after.

Management isn't actually allowed to say anything definitive about Stamkos because he is still a player under contract with Tampa Bay until July 1st. Saying anything prior would amount to tampering.

The article you referenced highlights how this management team does things: no stone is unturned, yet no premature declarations are made until the deal is done; all moves will be made with the long-term plan of sustained championship contention in mind.

As Lou said regarding the decision about the 1st overall pick, if there is still time to make a decision, we use all of it.
[/quote]

It isn't tampering if they came out and said that Stamkos doesn't 'fit' with their plan.

They've been very careful to avoid any kind of evident tampering in things they've said.

Couple notable Babcock quotes:

"We don't have a pure natural goal scorer.... like Ovechkin, so we have to score by committee." - post game presser

"Our core is going to be made up of players now 26 and under."  (Why not 25 and under?)

 

[Frank E]

It isn't tampering if they came out and said that Stamkos doesn't 'fit' with their plan.

They've been very careful to avoid any kind of evident tampering in things they've said.

Couple notable Babcock quotes:

"We don't have a pure natural goal scorer.... like Ovechkin, so we have to score by committee." - post game presser

"Our core is going to be made up of players now 26 and under."  (Why not 25 and under?)

You're just better off to just stay away from speaking about any pending UFA...saying you don't have a player like X wouldn't be seen as tampering though.

Secondly, Kadri is turning 26. 

EDIT:  Actually, if player X was a pending UFA, that might be interpreted as tampering.

 

[bustaheims]

Secondly, Kadri is turning 26. 

As is Gardiner, and JvR was 26 when the season ended.

 

[herman]

It isn't tampering if they came out and said that Stamkos doesn't 'fit' with their plan.

They've been very careful to avoid any kind of evident tampering in things they've said.

Couple notable Babcock quotes:

"We don't have a pure natural goal scorer.... like Ovechkin, so we have to score by committee." - post game presser

"Our core is going to be made up of players now 26 and under."  (Why not 25 and under?)

You're just better off to just stay away from speaking about any pending UFA...saying you don't have a player like X wouldn't be seen as tampering though.

Secondly, Kadri is turning 26. 

Yeah, basically never talk about even thinking about having a pending UFA player on your team. Ron Wilson cost the Leafs some cash in 09 when he said this the day before free agency, "You're hearing right now ? and this sounds very contradictory ? but there is a real possibility I would think that we would be going after the Sedins."

The Leafs coming out and saying anything about Stamkos' fit on the team is going to only be construed as tampering.

Complimenting a player, as you noted that Babcock did with Ovechkin, is not saying anything about acquiring that player, and thus not tampering.

 

[TBLeafer]

It isn't tampering if they came out and said that Stamkos doesn't 'fit' with their plan.

They've been very careful to avoid any kind of evident tampering in things they've said.

Couple notable Babcock quotes:

"We don't have a pure natural goal scorer.... like Ovechkin, so we have to score by committee." - post game presser

"Our core is going to be made up of players now 26 and under."  (Why not 25 and under?)

You're just better off to just stay away from speaking about any pending UFA...saying you don't have a player like X wouldn't be seen as tampering though.

Secondly, Kadri is turning 26. 

EDIT:  Actually, if player X was a pending UFA, that might be interpreted as tampering.

He isn't 26 yet.

Exactly.  I think Babcock was very careful not to say "like Stamkos" but everyone got the message loud and clear.

 

[TBLeafer]

Secondly, Kadri is turning 26. 

As is Gardiner, and JvR was 26 when the season ended.

Sounds like a core Stamkos is well suited to play with then. 

 

[Tigger]

As Nik explains, but doesn't state explicitly, the most important lesson to be learned from the Oilers is to not declare the rebuild to be over, and, subsequently, go out and make the kinds of moves rebuilding teams typically should not be making before your prospects and young players have formed a team that produces results that show that the rebuild is over.

Or just don't have dumb people running your franchise.

Yeah, I don't think there's much to be learned from the Edmonton situation, other than drafting first overall a bunch of times doesn't in and of itself turn your team into a strong one.  You need some serviceable talent to be acquired further into the draft.

There are some valid reasons not to sign Stamkos in this thread, but Edmonton's failures isn't one of them.

Agreed.  Edmonton's failures is an example of why you want to be a lottery team for as little years as possible when rebuilding.

The perfect storm happened to the Leafs this season, culminating in the 1st OA lottery win.

It won't happen again at least during Shanahan's tenure.  They have already scorched the earth, jettisoned their faulty core and started to assemble a new core.  I think they're going to want to do so with the best parts available, however they are acquired.

I think any team wants to be a lottery concern for as little years as possible, no one wants to lose, but bottoming out is a necessary evil to really rebuild when you're in as bad a shape as the Leafs were, still are really, and it takes as long as it takes. I, and many others, can see the Leafs as a lottery hopeful next year ( ie, bottom 5-6 ), that doesn't mean the Leaf' brass aren't doing their job, in fact, it may ultimately be proof that they know what they're doing.

 

[bustaheims]

I think any team wants to be a lottery concern for as little years as possible, no one wants to lose, but bottoming out is a necessary evil to really rebuild when you're in as bad a shape as the Leafs were, still are really, and it takes as long as it takes. I, and many others, can see the Leafs as a lottery hopeful next year ( ie, bottom 5-6 ), that doesn't mean the Leaf' brass aren't doing their job, in fact, it may ultimately be proof that they know what they're doing.

And, honestly, a top pick next year is quite possibly the last piece of the puzzle that can reliably acquired through the draft. If they can get a high enough pick to land Liljegren, they may just have the second top pairing defenceman they need. From there, obviously, comes the tricky part, though - finding the right goalie.

 

[TBLeafer]

And last offseason, Tank Nation said that last season's tank could be the last piece of the puzzle and most I've talked to now agree that its time to move on from being a lottery team as quickly as possible.  We have already amassed enough top talent through the draft to move on to the next phase.

Contending for a playoff spot.  Picking from the middle of next season's prospect pool will not be a failed effort or wasted season.

It will be adequate progress of a rebuilding team and a new core working to make the team better.

 

[bustaheims]

And last offseason, Tank Nation said that last season's tank could be the last piece of the puzzle and most I've talked to now agree that its time to move on from being a lottery team as quickly as possible.  We have already amassed enough top talent through the draft to move on to the next phase.

No, they didn't. Most people who supported the tank expected at least another season - if not two - of the Leafs finishing at/near the bottom of the standings.

 

[TBLeafer]

And last offseason, Tank Nation said that last season's tank could be the last piece of the puzzle and most I've talked to now agree that its time to move on from being a lottery team as quickly as possible.  We have already amassed enough top talent through the draft to move on to the next phase.

No, they didn't. Most people who supported the tank expected at least another season - if not two - of the Leafs finishing at/near the bottom of the standings.

Those still in support of that have become the vocal minority believe me.

Expectations of being in the playoffs remain low, but even some of the biggest tank proponents I know are ready to rally around this new young core, however it looks in the fall and cheer and hope for wins.

The fan mindset is changing, they aren't going to be cheering for losses anymore.

But yes, expectations remain low.  You are correct in that.

 

[cabber24]

If Stamkos does resign with TB, I hope he signs no earlier then July 1. It's all speculation now, a 81 page thread, it would be nice if he actually becomes available even if it's just for a short period. Justify our analysis and pipe dreams.

 

[rdowdall]

And last offseason, Tank Nation said that last season's tank could be the last piece of the puzzle and most I've talked to now agree that its time to move on from being a lottery team as quickly as possible.  We have already amassed enough top talent through the draft to move on to the next phase.

No, they didn't. Most people who supported the tank expected at least another season - if not two - of the Leafs finishing at/near the bottom of the standings.

Those still in support of that have become the vocal minority believe me.

Expectations of being in the playoffs remain low, but even some of the biggest tank proponents I know are ready to rally around this new young core, however it looks in the fall and cheer and hope for wins.

The fan mindset is changing, they aren't going to be cheering for losses anymore.

But yes, expectations remain low.  You are correct in that.

Then in essence you are cheering for the Edmonton Oilers.  Part of the problem is assuming that the rebuild started when the Leafs drafted Rielly.  It really didn't.  In the following years, up until  2015, the Leafs were in the Edmonton Oilers cycle.  They were keeping their high picks, but trying to retool or rebuild on the fly.  The rebuild only really started last summer in which the cleaned out the old faulty core, and made the decision to construct a team from the ground up.  This is why patience is the word of the day.  This plan needs to be thought through, and decisions need to be made that won't rush the process and with the end goal of constructing a team that can take multiple shots at winning a cup, not just a "make the playoffs once, flounder for a couple of years, make the playoffs a couple years in row maybe, flounder some more" approach.

Look at it this way.  For the next 6 years, Matthews will have Stamkos if he is signed, but around 32, his play will probably start to drop off, because that is what happens.  So then Matthews won't have anybody riding shotgun with him any more.  You are now in a position where you team is weaker.  However, if you are bad again next year and get a Matthews equivalent in the draft, then for the next 13 years, you have Matthews and the player drafted next year riding shotgun with each other.  You now have a larger window to win the cup with. 

 

[TBLeafer]

And last offseason, Tank Nation said that last season's tank could be the last piece of the puzzle and most I've talked to now agree that its time to move on from being a lottery team as quickly as possible.  We have already amassed enough top talent through the draft to move on to the next phase.

No, they didn't. Most people who supported the tank expected at least another season - if not two - of the Leafs finishing at/near the bottom of the standings.

Those still in support of that have become the vocal minority believe me.

Expectations of being in the playoffs remain low, but even some of the biggest tank proponents I know are ready to rally around this new young core, however it looks in the fall and cheer and hope for wins.

The fan mindset is changing, they aren't going to be cheering for losses anymore.

But yes, expectations remain low.  You are correct in that.

Then in essence you are cheering for the Edmonton Oilers.  Part of the problem is assuming that the rebuild started when the Leafs drafted Rielly.  It really didn't.  In the following years, up until  2015, the Leafs were in the Edmonton Oilers cycle.  They were keeping their high picks, but trying to retool or rebuild on the fly.  The rebuild only really started last summer in which the cleaned out the old faulty core, and made the decision to construct a team from the ground up.  This is why patience is the word of the day.  This plan needs to be thought through, and decisions need to be made that won't rush the process and with the end goal of constructing a team that can take multiple shots at winning a cup, not just a "make the playoffs once, flounder for a couple of years, make the playoffs a couple years in row maybe, flounder some more" approach.

Look at it this way.  For the next 6 years, Matthews will have Stamkos if he is signed, but around 32, his play will probably start to drop off, because that is what happens.  So then Matthews won't have anybody riding shotgun with him any more.  You are now in a position where you team is weaker.  However, if you are bad again next year and get a Matthews equivalent in the draft, then for the next 13 years, you have Matthews and the player drafted next year riding shotgun with each other.  You now have a larger window to win the cup with.

I understand your thinking, but disagree.  The rebuild started with the players Shanahan decided to sign his first long term contracts with.

You're over thinking things

 

[bustaheims]

I understand your thinking, but disagree.  The rebuild started with the players Shanahan decided to sign his first long term contracts with.

By that logic, the rebuild only started a few months ago. Rielly and Kadri were the first players to receive long-term contracts in the post-Nonis era.

 

[herman]

Then in essence you are cheering for the Edmonton Oilers.  Part of the problem is assuming that the rebuild started when the Leafs drafted Rielly.  It really didn't.  In the following years, up until  2015, the Leafs were in the Edmonton Oilers cycle.  They were keeping their high picks, but trying to retool or rebuild on the fly.  The rebuild only really started last summer in which the cleaned out the old faulty core, and made the decision to construct a team from the ground up.  This is why patience is the word of the day.  This plan needs to be thought through, and decisions need to be made that won't rush the process and with the end goal of constructing a team that can take multiple shots at winning a cup, not just a "make the playoffs once, flounder for a couple of years, make the playoffs a couple years in row maybe, flounder some more" approach.

Look at it this way.  For the next 6 years, Matthews will have Stamkos if he is signed, but around 32, his play will probably start to drop off, because that is what happens.  So then Matthews won't have anybody riding shotgun with him any more.  You are now in a position where you team is weaker.  However, if you are bad again next year and get a Matthews equivalent in the draft, then for the next 13 years, you have Matthews and the player drafted next year riding shotgun with each other.  You now have a larger window to win the cup with.

I understand your thinking, but disagree.  The rebuild started with the players Shanahan decided to sign his first long term contracts with.

You're over thinking things

I agree with Significantly Insignificant. The rebuild does not start until someone decides to actually rebuild. Everything prior to that was building on the fly with band-aid fixes to try to jump us into the playoffs.

Signing Rielly and Kadri are reusing/refurbishing remaining material that is still useful for the new build. The rebuild did not start with when Kadri and Rielly were initially drafted/purchased.

 

[rdowdall]

And last offseason, Tank Nation said that last season's tank could be the last piece of the puzzle and most I've talked to now agree that its time to move on from being a lottery team as quickly as possible.  We have already amassed enough top talent through the draft to move on to the next phase.

No, they didn't. Most people who supported the tank expected at least another season - if not two - of the Leafs finishing at/near the bottom of the standings.

Those still in support of that have become the vocal minority believe me.

Expectations of being in the playoffs remain low, but even some of the biggest tank proponents I know are ready to rally around this new young core, however it looks in the fall and cheer and hope for wins.

The fan mindset is changing, they aren't going to be cheering for losses anymore.

But yes, expectations remain low.  You are correct in that.

Then in essence you are cheering for the Edmonton Oilers.  Part of the problem is assuming that the rebuild started when the Leafs drafted Rielly.  It really didn't.  In the following years, up until  2015, the Leafs were in the Edmonton Oilers cycle.  They were keeping their high picks, but trying to retool or rebuild on the fly.  The rebuild only really started last summer in which the cleaned out the old faulty core, and made the decision to construct a team from the ground up.  This is why patience is the word of the day.  This plan needs to be thought through, and decisions need to be made that won't rush the process and with the end goal of constructing a team that can take multiple shots at winning a cup, not just a "make the playoffs once, flounder for a couple of years, make the playoffs a couple years in row maybe, flounder some more" approach.

Look at it this way.  For the next 6 years, Matthews will have Stamkos if he is signed, but around 32, his play will probably start to drop off, because that is what happens.  So then Matthews won't have anybody riding shotgun with him any more.  You are now in a position where you team is weaker.  However, if you are bad again next year and get a Matthews equivalent in the draft, then for the next 13 years, you have Matthews and the player drafted next year riding shotgun with each other.  You now have a larger window to win the cup with.

I understand your thinking, but disagree.  The rebuild started with the players Shanahan decided to sign his first long term contracts with.

You're over thinking things

So the rebuild started at the end of this year with the Reilly and Kadri signings?  So they haven't even been rebuilding for more than a month?    And there is no fear at all that you are trying to rush this process at all?  People who are preaching patience, the one thing lacking the last 50 years for every team that the Leafs built, is "over thinking" things.

 

[TBLeafer]

I understand your thinking, but disagree.  The rebuild started with the players Shanahan decided to sign his first long term contracts with.

By that logic, the rebuild only started a few months ago. Rielly and Kadri were the first players to receive long-term contracts in the post-Nonis era.

In a way you are correct.  But a building is only as good as the year its oldest piece dates back to.

 

[bustaheims]

Those still in support of that have become the vocal minority believe me.

Expectations of being in the playoffs remain low, but even some of the biggest tank proponents I know are ready to rally around this new young core, however it looks in the fall and cheer and hope for wins.

The fan mindset is changing, they aren't going to be cheering for losses anymore.

But yes, expectations remain low.  You are correct in that.

We get it. You and some other fans want things done quickly. Management and the rest of us want things done right. And, trust me, this isn't the only message board I read. The overwhelming feeling I see from people is that they understand this isn't going to be a short-turnaround. People are rallying around the young players and prospects, with the understanding that the team is still going to be near-the-bottom-of-the-standings bad for a while longer.