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Tank Nation UNITE!!!

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CarltonTheBear said:
bustaheims said:
Well, the difference there was that Leiweke was the President of MLSE, not the Leafs specifically. He wasn't a hockey guy and shouldn't have had much say in hockey-related decisions, while the MLSE board was there to rubber stamp things and make sure the money was okay. Shanahan, on the other hand, is specifically in charge of the Leafs, and is expected to have input in hockey-related decisions. He's expected to be less concerned about money and newsworthy moves and the kind of things Leiweke was supposed to prioritize, and more concerned about building a team that can actually win.
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I do still think that people are reading more into that line than they should have. Shanahan isn't the teams GM. If he wanted to be he could quite easily have that title. His job isn't to oversee every single trade and signing that the team makes. He sets the direction and hands off the responsibilities to the rest of the front office. I'm sure as a brain trust the entire group will make a decision on whether they should trade or re-sign Franson, with Shanahan having a big say there. But if Nonis comes back to Shanahan and says hey I've got a deal all done and ready to go I can't see a situation where Shanny would say "no, I think you could get a 1st instead of a 2nd round pick, go back and do it again".

I've certainly joked myself about Nonis being the assistant GM now but I don't think that's actually the case. This isn't a Sakic/Sherman scenario like in Colorado. Nonis is still the General Manager of this team, and Shanahan clearly trusts him to be in that position and to make the decisions that a GM would, otherwise he would have already been fired. In Boston Chiarelli has a boss in the same situation as Nonis, but nobody thinks that he isn't any less of a GM.
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Would Nonis have had to run every deal past Leiweke or someone else prior to Shanahan?
 
Potvin29 said:
Would Nonis have had to run every deal past Leiweke or someone else prior to Shanahan?
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Not every deal, no. Large deals would have needed board approval. I'm pretty sure I even remember Burke saying something to that effect. But I'm not convinced that Nonis has to run every single deal by Shanny. Even with Franson, I just used that as an example to show how absurd it could be, but why would another GM want to negotiate with Nonis if it should really be Shanahan that's making the decision? And why would Shanahan employ a GM that he doesn't trust to make a trade?

Nonis isn't going to go out and make a trade or signing that Shanahan, Dubas, and Hunter would all disagree with him on. They're going to have to be on roughly the same page, and their input is going to be much more beneficial to the team than what Poulin and Loiselle were giving.
 
CarltonTheBear said:
Potvin29 said:
Would Nonis have had to run every deal past Leiweke or someone else prior to Shanahan?
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Not every deal, no. Large deals would have needed board approval. I'm pretty sure I even remember Burke saying something to that effect. But I'm not convinced that Nonis has to run every single deal by Shanny. Even with Franson, I just used that as an example to show how absurd it could be, but why would another GM want to negotiate with Nonis if it should really be Shanahan that's making the decision? And why would Shanahan employ a GM that he doesn't trust to make a trade?

Nonis isn't going to go out and make a trade or signing that Shanahan, Dubas, and Hunter would all disagree with him on. They're going to have to be on roughly the same page, and their input is going to be much more beneficial to the team than what Poulin and Loiselle were giving.
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I'm just thinking that in the past Nonis may have just done what he wanted outside of big moves but now would (as I read it) run/discuss each move with Shanahan et al first.  But that's just guessing really.
 
Potvin29 said:
I'm just thinking that in the past Nonis may have just done what he wanted outside of big moves but now would (as I read it) run/discuss each move with Shanahan et al first.  But that's just guessing really.
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He probably has to get final approval from Shanahan. To me, the biggest change is that Nonis no longer has the final say in the direction the team is taking. He's not longer trying to execute his vision. It's Shanahan's call and Shanahan's vision of the team going forward. He's the one giving the marching orders, and Nonis is now on the receiving end.
 
bustaheims said:
Potvin29 said:
I'm just thinking that in the past Nonis may have just done what he wanted outside of big moves but now would (as I read it) run/discuss each move with Shanahan et al first.  But that's just guessing really.
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He probably has to get final approval from Shanahan. To me, the biggest change is that Nonis no longer has the final say in the direction the team is taking. He's not longer trying to execute his vision. It's Shanahan's call and Shanahan's vision of the team going forward. He's the one giving the marching orders, and Nonis is now on the receiving end.
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I've been sort of viewing Nonis sticking around as Shanahan hoping to mold the team in his vision but wanting to take advantage of Nonis' experience as GM in terms of connections around the league, experience in negotiating with other GMs, etc.  Knowledge like that which Shanahan wouldn't be able to learn elsewhere.
 
Potvin29 said:
I've been sort of viewing Nonis sticking around as Shanahan hoping to mold the team in his vision but wanting to take advantage of Nonis' experience as GM in terms of connections around the league, experience in negotiating with other GMs, etc.  Knowledge like that which Shanahan wouldn't be able to learn elsewhere.
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Yeah. It takes time to cultivate relationships with other GMs, and those relationships can be very helpful in terms of getting trades done. It's a big reason why we tend to see some teams trade more frequently with each other. Keeping someone like Nonis around while others start to build those relationships is potentially very useful, especially considering the lack of experience from the other guys in the front office.
 
A good article on how the situation in Boston works with a Team President and a GM:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/09/30/bruins-front-office-moves-front-line/JWL37Uobsv3nPb0zVAkRHL/story.html

Obviously, every situation will be unique, but this is how it breaks down in Boston:

In simple terms, the trio works this way:

■ Neely is head of concept and vision, charged with identifying, restoring, and helping to maintain the franchise?s image, culture, and ethos on both the playing and business sides of the operation.

■ Chiarelli is the chief hockey integrator, managing both up and down the organization, empowered, he says, with autonomy to make all player moves he and his group deem necessary ? including the blockbuster transactions that dealt high-profiled young stars Phil Kessel and Tyler Seguin in a span of less than 48 months.

■ Julien?s role is application, the shaping, employment, and maximizing of the player products delivered to his doorstep by Chiarelli and assistant GMs Jim Benning and Don Sweeney, the pair of ex-NHL defensemen who serve as Chiarelli?s trusted player-personnel lieutenants.
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I am pretty much resided to the fact that the Leafs will finish in the 7-10 range...and that a team higher than us will win the lottery and we will actually move down a spot.

It's so TML....
 
bustaheims said:
Potvin29 said:
I've been sort of viewing Nonis sticking around as Shanahan hoping to mold the team in his vision but wanting to take advantage of Nonis' experience as GM in terms of connections around the league, experience in negotiating with other GMs, etc.  Knowledge like that which Shanahan wouldn't be able to learn elsewhere.
Click to expand...

Yeah. It takes time to cultivate relationships with other GMs, and those relationships can be very helpful in terms of getting trades done. It's a big reason why we tend to see some teams trade more frequently with each other. Keeping someone like Nonis around while others start to build those relationships is potentially very useful, especially considering the lack of experience from the other guys in the front office.
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Yep. That was my read on the situation once Shanahan cut out the old assistant GMs/coaches. Carlyle didn't play ball (aim for development, establish defensive foundational play) for long, so that accelerated the plan on the on-ice side of things. Nonis now has inexperienced, but exceptional support from Dubas (analytics translator, OHL and under expert), Hunter (development, OHL and under expert), Pridham (salary cap management). Nonis has always struck me as more effective in a role of middle management anyway, executing a set vision, rather than casting his own.


From MLHS's latest Leafs Notebook (link)
I think the next few years is the time to load up on draft picks, but maybe not for the reason you think. In the NFL, I saw the Seahawks take steal after steal in the late rounds because Pete Carroll knew the college route so well and had the inside scoop on hundreds of players. Many of the players he brought over to the Seahawks were players he openly tried to recruit and at times was unsuccessful in doing so (Richard Sherman, for example). Mark Hunter and Kyle Dubas are going to know the OHL like the back of their hand right now. For this draft, and the next draft, they?ll have firsthand knowledge of what these prospects were like playing minor midget, to how they transitioned to the OHL, to what their ceiling is. Evaluating is about putting all pieces of information together to make a judgement, and the amount of information they will have on the two upcoming drafts, at least for the OHL, will be second to none. I am curious to see how many players they take from the OHL, and if they will be able to load up on picks. Now is definitely the time to do it. Teams value draft picks the least at this time of year.
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The time to see the fruits of our off season management moves is in the next 3-5 years. This season was a wash from the get go and we're now simply paying off the shortcuts the previous regime(s) took to keep the ship afloat. So Leafs Nation, keep calm and tank on.
 
herman said:
Yep. That was my read on the situation once Shanahan cut out the old assistant GMs/coaches. Carlyle didn't play ball (aim for development, establish defensive foundational play) for long, so that accelerated the plan on the on-ice side of things. Nonis now has inexperienced, but exceptional support from Dubas (analytics translator, OHL and under expert), Hunter (development, OHL and under expert), Pridham (salary cap management). Nonis has always struck me as more effective in a role of middle management anyway, executing a set vision, rather than casting his own.
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That's exactly how I see it too. I'm fine with him remaining as GM, executing Shanahan's directives.
 
CarltonTheBear said:
A good article on how the situation in Boston works with a Team President and a GM:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/09/30/bruins-front-office-moves-front-line/JWL37Uobsv3nPb0zVAkRHL/story.html
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Great find. I like this quote too, which is an aspect of Horachek's approach that I really admire (because it hurts his results initially):

Julien?s ability to work with whatever players are sent his way, said Chiarelli, is in large part why he recently labeled the veteran coach his most significant hire in Boston. Julien and his staff are ?malleable,? said Chiarelli, able to groom all players, for the most part, to deliver in a defensive-oriented system that is the shared vision of both coach and GM.

?One thing I am not is hard-headed,?? said Julien. ?As I often say to Peter, my role as coach is always the same, to get the most out of players I have in my possession. If I do that, and it?s not good enough, then it?s up to Peter to make those changes. If I don?t do my job, and don?t get the most out of a player, it?s hard for him to know if that player should go or stay. That?s how you have to work together on that kind of stuff.??
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In short order, Horachek has been able to get buy-in from most of the team and cull some dumb habits. We're still losing at the moment, but it's probably the best season in over 10 years to be a loser in.
 
I'd get rid of Nonis. The sooner the better. After the season? Fine, just do it.

Nonis has built a horrible Leafs teams while capping them out with ugly long term contracts. I didn't like a lot of Burke's moves, but at least he had the Leafs in reasonably good cap position. Nonis has decimated that.
 
Reports saying Santorelli wants 3 per for 3.

I'd explore moving several others before moving him if that's all he wants. He's been the 3rd or 4th best forward this year imo.
 
Patrick said:
Reports saying Santorelli wants 3 per for 3.

I'd explore moving several others before moving him if that's all he wants. He's been the 3rd or 4th best forward this year imo.
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That's probably more of a statement about the other guys on the team than Santorelli though.
 
Patrick said:
Reports saying Santorelli wants 3 per for 3.

I'd explore moving several others before moving him if that's all he wants. He's been the 3rd or 4th best forward this year imo.
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Even at that . . . if the Leafs are going into a real rebuild, they're better off with the assets they could get by trading him now and maybe taking a run at him as a UFA than signing him. You can probably replace him for less than $3M on a short-term deal with a late summer signing. I've liked what he's brought to the team, but, I think he'd be better served going to a team that isn't about to be torn asunder, while the Leafs are better not committing multiple years to anyone significantly older than 25.
 
3 at 3 is good for Santorelli, worth keeping, I would move Winneck, Lupul, Bozak, Phanuef and (Clarkson if at all possible)
 
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