The Brian Burke Thread

[Redleaf]

Well, last year he had 5 points in 10 games with the big boys and had a +2. I'd say that's a minor success pointing to his ability to be able to compete with the Leafs.

He's also only 22 years old. If we're going to view him as a failure, I suppose we have to look at Kadri as a failure as well.

Wouldn't be surprise if Colbourne is packaged in a deal for a Goalie. Just a hunch.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Well, last year he had 5 points in 10 games with the big boys and had a +2. I'd say that's a minor success pointing to his ability to be able to compete with the Leafs.

He's also only 22 years old. If we're going to view him as a failure, I suppose we have to look at Kadri as a failure as well.

Nobody called Colborne a failure here. The word was disappointment. And nobody even called him a disappointment either, just that he was approaching that state.

I know that he's only 22, and I'm completely fine with the way the Leafs have been bringing up both he and Kadri slowly. But given their potential and the amount of time they've been playing professional hockey, I think it's reasonable to expect them to be top players on the Marlies by now. Kadri is there right now, but Colborne is not.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Wouldn't be surprise if Colbourne is packaged in a deal for a Goalie. Just a hunch.

Me neither. Colborne likely tops out as a 2nd line centre in the NHL. That's not a knock on him, but we've got a pretty good guy on our team right now who fills that role and was just signed to a long-term contract.

 

[Jalili]

Who said Colborne's a failure? Arguing that he's approaching the status as a disappointment (in the context of being a Leaf acquisition) is quite a big difference.

CTB raised a good point about what the organization's expectations likely were when they acquired him. He hasn't really progressed the way you'd hope a guy turning 23 next month would be at right now.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Who said Colborne's a failure? Arguing that he's approaching the status as a disappointment (in the context of being a Leaf acquisition) is quite a big difference.

CTB raised a good point about what the organization's expectations likely were when they acquired him. He hasn't really progressed the way you'd hope a guy turning 23 next month would be at right now.

No and I agree to a point, but Matt Frattin is 25 and is on the verge of really tearing it up. Some big men like Colborne take longer to work it out, I still value him.

 

[Jalili]

Who said Colborne's a failure? Arguing that he's approaching the status as a disappointment (in the context of being a Leaf acquisition) is quite a big difference.

CTB raised a good point about what the organization's expectations likely were when they acquired him. He hasn't really progressed the way you'd hope a guy turning 23 next month would be at right now.

No and I agree to a point, but Matt Frattin is 25 and is on the verge of really tearing it up. Some big men like Colborne take longer to work it out, I still value him.

Well, I thought of this actually while I was typing the last post.

Frattin is 2 years older, but go back 2 seasons ago, and he was absolutely tearing up college hockey.  36 goals in 44 games in the reg season & 10 goals in 13 playoff games. He also had off-ice discipline issues that I think he admitted really affected his first few years of college hockey, so I think that may explain why it took him so long to show his upside.

So I'm not sure if Frattin is a favourable comparison either, though that's not to say Colborne won't make it eventually.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Who said Colborne's a failure? Arguing that he's approaching the status as a disappointment (in the context of being a Leaf acquisition) is quite a big difference.

CTB raised a good point about what the organization's expectations likely were when they acquired him. He hasn't really progressed the way you'd hope a guy turning 23 next month would be at right now.

Ok, fine, if we're going to view Colborne as approaching 'disappointment', can we not view Kadri in the same way? Neither has made any real impact at the NHL level like it may of been hoped. Though, we can only go by what Burke said when he stated 'it won't take 3 years for him to make the NHL(paraphrasing)' when discussing the impact either would be making by the age of 22 at the NHL level(though of course, it hasn't been 3 years since the deal went down).

He is having a disappointing season, and yes, he could disappear into the abyss. He could also become Jiri Tlusty, whom was given up on at the age of 22 and turned into a guy who scored 17 goals last year for the Canes.

I apologize if I took your 'approaching disappointment' incorrectly. I just get fed up with Leaf fans, and the Toronto media constantly giving up on guys way too early.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Yeah I thought about that after I mentioned Frattin, I didn't really mean they has similar trajectories per se.

Just that it does take some players longer than others to reach the point where they are ready to jump to the NHL, with it often being the case with bigger guys.

Todd Bertuzzi was 25 when he had his first meaningful season and 27/28 when he actually had major contributions with the Canucks.

That's one example and it may not be the best, but I am sure this is often the case with big men.

I'd keep him around in case he work it out.

 

[Kin]

I'll give it to you since you said "sort of," but otherwise that's just a deliberate misuse or misleading use of facts.

Yes, Raycroft only achieved that fact once, but he only had an 89.4 save percentage and anyone who objectively watched his performance that year would say he was mediocre, decent at best.

Though Kessel has only achieved the ppg rate once in his career, I think it's safe to assume he's a bonafide offensive star in this league. You can count on 30 goals from him and it really appears that the ppg rate (or close to it) will be more of the trend than the exception. Additionally, his overall game is improving.

So while  saying he's a ppg player like Raycroft is a 37 game winner is historically correct, it's clearly not an apt comparison. Why not just say, "he's only been a ppg player once." No comparison needed.

The sense I was talking about was that both statements, while factually true, are simplistic statements that tell a very small part of the wider truth about each player. One of the ways in which it's a narrow way to describe them is, yes, that it's only happened once but there are others. 

A comparison between two things doesn't mean you're contending that they're exactly the same.

 

[Jalili]

Who said Colborne's a failure? Arguing that he's approaching the status as a disappointment (in the context of being a Leaf acquisition) is quite a big difference.

CTB raised a good point about what the organization's expectations likely were when they acquired him. He hasn't really progressed the way you'd hope a guy turning 23 next month would be at right now.

Ok, fine, if we're going to view Colborne as approaching 'disappointment', can we not view Kadri in the same way? Neither has made any real impact at the NHL level like it may of been hoped. Though, we can only go by what Burke said when he stated 'it won't take 3 years for him to make the NHL(paraphrasing)' when discussing the impact either would be making by the age of 22 at the NHL level(though of course, it hasn't been 3 years since the deal went down).

He is having a disappointing season, and yes, he could disappear into the abyss. He could also become Jiri Tlusty, whom was given up on at the age of 22 and turned into a guy who scored 17 goals last year for the Canes.

I apologize if I took your 'approaching disappointment' incorrectly. I just get fed up with Leaf fans, and the Toronto media constantly giving up on guys way too early.

I think it's more of the opposite regarding Kadri. He seems on track with his development; there's just a few specific kinks in his game and body type that he needs to address and then he'll successfully make the jump to the NHL.

Whereas with Colborne, it's hard to pinpoint where he's at in his development. The disappointment isn't due to not making an impact at the NHL level, it's because he's barely staying afloat at the AHL level right now. Ideally you want your prospects trending upwards.

 

[13th fan]

Burke has some decision to make this summer . According TSN this article "Each team will be allowed two amnesty buyouts that can be used to terminate contracts after this season and next season. The buyouts will count against the players' overall share in revenues, but not the team's salary cap." My first thoughts are Komisarek but who else should be bought out ?

 

[Corn Flake]

BACK TO YELLING ABOUT BURKE HOOORRAAAYYY!

 

[Kin]

So here's a question. I know a lot of people have presumed that Burke is on very thin ice if the team fails to make the playoffs this year. Assuming that's true, does the fact that the season has been shortened change that in anyway? My inclination is to say yes, as it strikes me as a tough decision to make after a short season, but it bears some thinking about.

 

[ZBBM]

So here's a question. I know a lot of people have presumed that Burke is on very thin ice if the team fails to make the playoffs this year. Assuming that's true, does the fact that the season has been shortened change that in anyway? My inclination is to say yes, as it strikes me as a tough decision to make after a short season, but it bears some thinking about.

I tend to say no, simply because Carlisle will have not been in place for even the equivalent of a full regular season by the time this one ends.  Only if the team posts an absolutely abysmal record do I think they even consider axing him.

 

[Corn Flake]

So here's a question. I know a lot of people have presumed that Burke is on very thin ice if the team fails to make the playoffs this year. Assuming that's true, does the fact that the season has been shortened change that in anyway? My inclination is to say yes, as it strikes me as a tough decision to make after a short season, but it bears some thinking about.

I fully agree it certainly buys him another (half) season at the job.  I can't see how the new board could evaluate him or the team over the course of 48 games and there could be 100 valid reasons why if the Leafs don't make it you can say the short year had a lot to do with that.  A 6-7 game losing streak probably does any team in. Could easily happen.

I wasn't fully convinced he was going to be canned either way but this certainly buys him a year.. probably a full calendar year at the job, which by then I think this team will be doing just fine (goaltending pending).

 

[Kin]

So here's a question. I know a lot of people have presumed that Burke is on very thin ice if the team fails to make the playoffs this year. Assuming that's true, does the fact that the season has been shortened change that in anyway? My inclination is to say yes, as it strikes me as a tough decision to make after a short season, but it bears some thinking about.

I tend to say no, simply because Carlisle will have not been in place for even the equivalent of a full regular season by the time this one ends.  Only if the team posts an absolutely abysmal record do I think they even consider axing him.

Wait, you say no that a shortened season doesn't change Burke's status or you say no to mean that Burke isn't in jeopardy regardless?

 

[ZBBM]

So here's a question. I know a lot of people have presumed that Burke is on very thin ice if the team fails to make the playoffs this year. Assuming that's true, does the fact that the season has been shortened change that in anyway? My inclination is to say yes, as it strikes me as a tough decision to make after a short season, but it bears some thinking about.

I tend to say no, simply because Carlisle will have not been in place for even the equivalent of a full regular season by the time this one ends.  Only if the team posts an absolutely abysmal record do I think they even consider axing him.

Wait, you say no that a shortened season doesn't change Burke's status or you say no to mean that Burke isn't in jeopardy regardless?

I say that I am not even close to be fully awake yet.  What was the question?   

EDIT:  OK, went outside and stuck my face in a snowbank.  I now realize I'm agreeing with you guys!  This is so awesome.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Why would Burke want to be rid of Carlyle in a shortened season even if the Leafs do not make the playoffs?  Superior grand expectarions?  Don't think so.

Unless it is Burke's single-minded goal to absolutely achieve playoff status due to a shortened season in which he believes should give the Leafs a far better chance of making the post season.

 

[Kin]

Who said anything about firing Carlyle?

 

[ZBBM]

Who said anything about firing Carlyle?

Well, now that you have, I think I'm there.  Can him and bring in this Beckenbaugh fellow.