The Official Complaint Thread!

[Kin]

Actually Nik, it IS a concrete term under most use of force models. There are guidelines when this type of force can be applied and failure to adhere to those guidelines can have serious legal consequences.

You're confusing the concept of a specific definition under certain guidelines with a concrete fact. Anything could be referred to as a compliance tool if its purpose could be compliance. That Pepper Spray is defined as such by certain groups doesn't give the term any more weight.

Potvin or anyone else is certainly entitled to their opinion. I believe in the rule of law and that society cannot function without it. I believe that, even in a free society, that people cannot just do anything they want without consequences. I was explaining the legal standpoint to him and he attacked my beliefs. If he wants to discuss things that way I can do the same.

If you're inclined to climb down off the cross for a second, Potvin "attacked" you by sarcastically dismissing your argumentum ad verecundiam. It's pretty clear that by saying it was "messed up" Potvin wasn't saying it violated some sort of specific law or regulation.

Saying that everyone's entitled to their opinion directly contradicts the idea, espoused by you, that the only question here as to justification is a legal one. You directly said that ethical or moral questions over this behaviour is an inappropriate question. But in a free society those are valid questions regardless of what the law says.

 

[Kin]

And, really, isn't this just a perfect example of the OWS movement in a nutshell? People complaining that the system and it's laws are insufficient to the needs and beliefs of the people and the opposition claiming that change needs to come from that system and legal authority.

 

[Kin]

Do you think it's morally justified to break the law whenever it suits your purpose?

I think that anyone who looked over the last hundred years of human history and said the primary question when determining moral justification is the law of the land would have some interesting moral beliefs.

 

[TML fan]

So then you believe that that breaking the law is morally justified when it suits your purpose? That you have no responsibility to act appropriately with the freedoms you've been given?

Im trying to understand where you're coming from. I don't understand how a police service that is both morally justified in performing their duty and legally justified in using the amount of force they did is "messed" but a bunch of disobedient and unlawful protestors is completely normal and acceptable. It just seem like the argument is one that contains a double standard. Ignoring the unlawful actions d one group without questioning the morality of their position and condemning the lawful actions and questioning the morality of another.

A gun COULD be used as a compliance tool, but it would not be justified, legally or morally. You may thing that spraying a line of protestors is immoral, but pain compliance is an acceptable use of force in this situation, and pepper spray is one type of tool that can be used in this situation. Would the police have been more or less moral if they had used open hand tactics to remove the protestors? Had they just came in and started grappling with everyone, we'd probably be having the same conversation.

 

[Kin]

So then you believe that that breaking the law is morally justified when it suits your purpose?

Of course it can be. Again, it would boggle my mind to think that anyone would think otherwise if they were vaguely cognizant of what had happened in modern society in the last 70 years.

I mean, unless you're the kind of person who thinks George Wallace sold out as he got older, what person wouldn't think that?

That you have no responsibility to act appropriately with the freedoms you've been given?

I think the people who kind of came up with the idea of personal freedom, your John Lockes, your JJ Rousseaus and so on, would recoil pretty handily from the idea that freedom has been "given" to me by some benevolent state. Likewise, the idea that "acting responsibly" in a society means following the laws regardless of what you think of them strikes me as a pretty basic perversion of our relationship with our governments.

The state is responsible to the people, not the other way around.

 

[LittleHockeyFan]

:-( you guys are taking all the fun and lightheartedness out of the complaint thread *whine* /end teenager mode

 

[TML fan]

You know who else was morally justified? Bernie Madoff.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I would like to complain about the bird that ran into my helmet as I was biking home today.

Seriously bird, I am being eco-friendly!

 

[Stebro]

I just don't like it when teams score 7 goals instead of 8, I mean what's the deal with that?

 

[Bates]

Just a simple question on these Occupy movements.  If I want to go down and camp in any park in a City would I also be permitted to do so or do I have to be "protesting" something?  And if ordered to leave by the authorities do I have to obey or can I disregard because I believe I am being peaceful and should be able to stay anywhere I want?  And can I do this in anyone's frontyard or is it limited to Govt owned space?

 

[Bates]

http://en.video.canoe.tv/video/Levant-Occupy/1283718795001/

 

[Kin]

Just a simple question on these Occupy movements.  If I want to go down and camp in any park in a City would I also be permitted to do so or do I have to be "protesting" something?  And if ordered to leave by the authorities do I have to obey or can I disregard because I believe I am being peaceful and should be able to stay anywhere I want?  And can I do this in anyone's frontyard or is it limited to Govt owned space?

That doesn't sound like a question about the protests at all. Seems to me like there's an ulterior motive there somewhere.

 

[Peter D.]

Is it ever annoying seeing the mug of the founder of Wikipedia on every Wiki page I open with his personal appeal.  We get it already.

 

[Darryl]

Is it ever annoying seeing the mug of the founder of Wikipedia on every Wiki page I open with his personal appeal.  We get it already.

We thought of doing the same thing here with a picture of Del Mundo but we knew it would drive too many people away.

 

[RobDM]

Is it ever annoying seeing the mug of the founder of Wikipedia on every Wiki page I open with his personal appeal.  We get it already.

We thought of doing the same thing here with a picture of Del Mundo but we knew it would drive too many people away.

No argument from me. Heck, the photo on my media pass is so bad that I'm not concerned about losing it - because if anyone ever found it, I don't think they'd lower themselves to attempt to resemble me. 

 

[AlmosGirl]

My complaint is that we got 2 dwarf Russian hamsters from a co-worker - 2 boys.  He said that they would be ok together in one cage, researched it on line and pretty much got the same answers but just to keep an eye on them.

Well Rupert (daughter's) has been the instigator and bully and is beating up on Bongo (son #2's).  Their fighting has gotten out of hand and when I checked more closely last night, it seems that Rupert has really beaten up Bongo and torn his one ear a little.  Sooooo, had to seperate these 2 last night and now have to go get another cage.

Ugh.  I knew I shouldn't have let my co-worker and my daughter talk me in to getting 2 of them!

 

[Madferret]

My complaint is that we got 2 dwarf Russian hamsters from a co-worker - 2 boys.  He said that they would be ok together in one cage, researched it on line and pretty much got the same answers but just to keep an eye on them.

Well Rupert (daughter's) has been the instigator and bully and is beating up on Bongo (son #2's).  Their fighting has gotten out of hand and when I checked more closely last night, it seems that Rupert has really beaten up Bongo and torn his one ear a little.  Sooooo, had to seperate these 2 last night and now have to go get another cage.

Ugh.  I knew I shouldn't have let my co-worker and my daughter talk me in to getting 2 of them!

You know you might be able to gain financially from having two "fighting" hamsters. Ever heard of bum fights?
;]

 

[AlmosGirl]

My complaint is that we got 2 dwarf Russian hamsters from a co-worker - 2 boys.  He said that they would be ok together in one cage, researched it on line and pretty much got the same answers but just to keep an eye on them.

Well Rupert (daughter's) has been the instigator and bully and is beating up on Bongo (son #2's).  Their fighting has gotten out of hand and when I checked more closely last night, it seems that Rupert has really beaten up Bongo and torn his one ear a little.  Sooooo, had to seperate these 2 last night and now have to go get another cage.

Ugh.  I knew I shouldn't have let my co-worker and my daughter talk me in to getting 2 of them!

You know you might be able to gain financially from having two "fighting" hamsters. Ever heard of bum fights?
;]

Ahhhh no and not sure that I want to.  LOL!

They are both in their own separate cages now and seem to be perfectly happy.  Little brats. ;D

 

[Sucker Punch]

Its 1:00 in the afternoon, we got 30 centimetres of snow dumped on us, and it was recently revealed that we had a 756 million dollar budget surplus.

CAN WE MAYBE GET OUR GODDAMN STREET PLOWED?  EVEN JUST A CURSORY PASS SO I DON'T HAVE TO SHOVEL 100 FEET DOWN MY STREET TO GET TO A MAIN ROAD, WHERE THE PLOW HAS GONE BY AND LEFT A FOUR FOOT SNOWBANK CUTTING US OFF AT THE INTERSECTION?  NOT ALL OF US HAVE FOUR WHEEL DRIVE PICKUPS, DOUCHEBAGS.  WE HAVE TO GET TO WORK TOO, YOU KNOW?

 

[LittleHockeyFan]

Its 1:00 in the afternoon, we got 30 centimetres of snow dumped on us, and it was recently revealed that we had a 756 million dollar budget surplus.

CAN WE MAYBE GET OUR GODDAMN STREET PLOWED?  EVEN JUST A CURSORY PASS SO I DON'T HAVE TO SHOVEL 100 FEET DOWN MY STREET TO GET TO A MAIN ROAD, WHERE THE PLOW HAS GONE BY AND LEFT A FOUR FOOT SNOWBANK CUTTING US OFF AT THE INTERSECTION?  NOT ALL OF US HAVE FOUR WHEEL DRIVE PICKUPS, DOUCHEBAGS.  WE HAVE TO GET TO WORK TOO, YOU KNOW?

poor SP.....