The Official TV Thread

[herman]

I?m not familiar with Ennis? story to know what?s missing. Did any in particular themes come to mind, Nik?

The Punisher so far has run with much better pacing and characterization than the other series. The formula has been thrown out. I?m enjoying the layers (and character surrogacy), and how each foil is being set up as Frank if he had pursued different paths at his critical inflection points.

 

[Kin]

I?m not familiar with Ennis? story to know what?s missing. Did any in particular themes come to mind, Nik?

Well, theme is probably a thorny word there as it can be hard to isolate that from plot and substance. But I think it's an important distinction to make that he's not just a more violent Batman. In most of those stories his motivations aren't really important(and they're certainly not as simple as protecting other people or revenge). Largely they're meditations on grief and rage, even as they're largely meaningless.

(There's a particular story about Eastern European sex trafficking which actually spells it out plainly. He kills a bunch of people because he hates criminals but is under no illusion that anything he did will change any of the damage done or put any real dent in the sex trafficking industry)

It's ugly and nihilistic in a lot of ways and I understand why ugly, violent nihilism isn't an easy sell. I do get why you can't really adapt most of his stuff faithfully(Ennis also wrote Preacher and most of what the Constantine movie is based on).

Alan Sepinwall said in his review that the Punisher really worked best in the books as a supporting character in his own books. You set up a neat crime story, establish some reprehensible villains and...then the Punisher kills them. Flipping that around into an examination of him or putting him in a traditional hero's role means, by default, having to try and analyze him or sympathize with him. Make him "good". But by the standard of the better books that'd be as silly as saying "Sure, he murdered all of those campers...but what makes Jason tick? What does he do when not killing?"

 

[herman]

Alan Sepinwall said in his review that the Punisher really worked best in the books as a supporting character in his own books. You set up a neat crime story, establish some reprehensible villains and...then the Punisher kills them. Flipping that around into an examination of him or putting him in a traditional hero's role means, by default, having to try and analyze him or sympathize with him. Make him "good". But by the standard of the better books that'd be as silly as saying "Sure, he murdered all of those campers...but what makes Jason tick? What does he do when not killing?"

That's an interesting point... so Punisher works best sort of like... Godzilla? Maybe not the best example... as one recent remake made the movie about Godzilla as a character, and the other more recent remake made Godzilla a force of nature that was witnessed by people they feebly attempted to make into characters (on their way to Sokovia).

The show is establishing Frank as a nexus: where he stands in the spectrum of soldiers/operatives, where he stands on the spectrum of fathers, where he stands on the spectrum of brothers, where he stands on the spectrum of survivors of war-trauma. I guess my lack of engagement with Punisher in the comics sort of helps here.

So far in this show, it's following a similar motivation beat that you referenced in the sex trafficking story, at least at first. He isn't trying to topple the systems and industries of injustice; he's just taking out anyone tangentially related to the reason he and his family were ambushed. The series quickly grounds that nihilism behind something a bit more relatable, even if Castle's personal motivation remains the same.

 

[Kin]

So far in this show, it's following a similar motivation beat that you referenced in the sex trafficking story, at least at first. He isn't trying to topple the systems and industries of injustice; he's just taking out anyone tangentially related to the reason he and his family were ambushed. The series quickly grounds that nihilism behind something a bit more relatable, even if Castle's personal motivation remains the same.

Well, but that's sort of my point. In the books, they go to some lengths to establish that what happened to him and his family was random. They were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. A victim not of a specific targeting but just the general atmosphere of lawlessness(it's important to keep in mind that the character was conceived in 70's era New York and as a Vietnam Veteran, something Ennis holds onto as key elements of the character) What he does he does out of obsession/an inability to deal with grief. The idea of him taking a break from it all to work construction because he figures he's gotten everyone behind the specific thing that happened to him and his family is very much not the idea.

I'm really very much not someone who has a problem with these properties deviating from the books generally. I just feel that sort of obsessive rage at the random cruelty of life is sort of the entire crux of what makes the character interesting. "They killed my family, so now I want revenge on them" is dime a dozen stuff.

 

[herman]

Well, but that's sort of my point. In the books, they go to some lengths to establish that what happened to him and his family was random. They were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. A victim not of a specific targeting but just the general atmosphere of lawlessness(it's important to keep in mind that the character was conceived in 70's era New York and as a Vietnam Veteran, something Ennis holds onto as key elements of the character) What he does he does out of obsession/an inability to deal with grief. The idea of him taking a break from it all to work construction because he figures he's gotten everyone behind the specific thing that happened to him and his family is very much not the idea.

This explains a lot; characters tend to be coloured by their context and  zeitgeist, yeah? This iteration certainly leans into today's political climate.

 

[TML fan]

Just finished re watching the first half season of Star Trek Discovery.

I still like it. It has potential. The writing is not very good. Neither is the acting, but I am wondering if that is a byproduct of the writing. The editing is also poor in some spots leading to weird transitions where it seems like you missed a part of the episode. I found it easy to ignore the fanboy complaints about the visuals and the seeming lack of continuity. It just doesn't matter that much to me.

It's getting a second season, but if they want it to go beyond that they are really going to have to improve the writing. Also, the show has like 15 executive producers which doesn't seem normal.

 

[Kin]

It's getting a second season, but if they want it to go beyond that they are really going to have to improve the writing. Also, the show has like 15 executive producers which doesn't seem normal.

Executive Producer is a pretty meaningless title. Stan Lee gets credited as Executive Producer on all the Marvel movies and I'm pretty sure he just shows up for his cameos.

 

[Bullfrog]

Just finished Manhunt: Unabomber on Netflix. Really enjoyed it. Paul Bettany was great as Kaczynski.

 

[herman]

So I tried Black Mirror last year and couldn't get through half of it, it was so bleak, save for San Junipero (which was awesome).

I tried Season 4 this week, and the first episode nailed it with a immensely well-timed story for such a time as this. It aced the bleak techno-dystopia elements of unfettered technology taking over lives, but with a hopeful twist that really leaned into its motif for the episode. Cristin Milioti is a delight.

 

[Kin]

I'm a fan of the bleaker ones as well but I agree that the changes of pace have been good for the show as a whole. I liked Hang the DJ more than the season opener this year but they were both good.

 

[herman]

I'm a fan of the bleaker ones as well but I agree that the changes of pace have been good for the show as a whole. I liked Hang the DJ more than the season opener this year but they were both good.

I'm slogging through Arkangel, but it looks like it'll be a chore. Were there any you'd recommend from S3? I liked the Bryce Dallas Howard episode (S03E01?), and the aforementioned San Junipero.

 

[Kin]

I'm a fan of the bleaker ones as well but I agree that the changes of pace have been good for the show as a whole. I liked Hang the DJ more than the season opener this year but they were both good.

I'm slogging through Arkangel, but it looks like it'll be a chore. Were there any you'd recommend from S3? I liked the Bryce Dallas Howard episode (S03E01?), and the aforementioned San Junipero.

Nothing jumps out at me. I think there are interesting things going on in the ones after San Junipero but they're a bit of a drag.

 

[Bullfrog]

I'm slogging through Arkangel, but it looks like it'll be a chore. Were there any you'd recommend from S3? I liked the Bryce Dallas Howard episode (S03E01?), and the aforementioned San Junipero.

Those two were my favourite, though I haven't finished that season yet.

 

[herman]

So Altered Carbon is pretty fantastic.

 

[rdowdall]

So Altered Carbon is pretty fantastic.

Yeah, great show.  I really enjoyed it.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

So Altered Carbon is pretty fantastic.

I was wondering about that one. That's great to hear.

 

[herman]

So Altered Carbon is pretty fantastic.

I was wondering about that one. That's great to hear.

Some caveats: the dialog is a bit hamfisted at times.

The visuals are gorgeous and there is a pretty healthy amount of nudity (romantic and clinical, if that distinction matters).

If you liked any of the following, you should be pretty pleased with this: Blade Runner, Battlestar Galactica (reboot), Dollhouse, Black Mirror, noir/detective movies/shows, some Avatar.

Doesn't delve as deeply into the identity themes and politics that I would like, but I'm pretty sure others would find that level too tedious.

Dichen Lachman and Tahmoh Penikett reunited warms my heart. I wish they got Enver Gjokaj and Reed Diamond too.

 

[Kin]

On a very different end of the spectrum I've really been enjoying The Chi. It's very clearly going for the feel of David Simon's shows but it's the first one in a long time that I think got the jist of what his shows were about and it has an on the ground authenticity his didn't always have.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

On a very different end of the spectrum I've really been enjoying The Chi. It's very clearly going for the feel of David Simon's shows but it's the first one in a long time that I think got the jist of what his shows were about and it has an on the ground authenticity his didn't always have.

You brought it up the other day and I meant to ask what you thought of it. AVClub's been giving it really good reviews. I'll have to check it out sometime.

 

[Kin]

You brought it up the other day and I meant to ask what you thought of it. AVClub's been giving it really good reviews. I'll have to check it out sometime.

Yeah, I will say though that it's long on feel and character while short on plot so in that sense it's a lot more like Treme than anything else and Treme, while a favourite of mine, was not for everyone.