Tim Thomas/white house

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I think this has all been something of an overreaction.  If a player refused to go to the white house when George W Bush was in power, or refused to visit the Vatican, I'd applaud them for taking a stand.

Even though I may disagree with his politics, I have to respect his freedom to make such a statement.

That's where I stand. He's entitled to it and good for him, people should be protesting everything the American government is choosing to do right now, if not simply for the NDAA.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

Man all those conscientious objectors and draft dodgers during the Vietnam war were suck wack-job jerks.

Thomas is dodging a draft or objecting to a war?

He's objecting to the government (or his idea of it) in about the best way he knows how. He doesn't like what they stand for.

I mean the analogy isn't great (ok it kinda sucks) but it's a free country and he's within his right to not turn up.

 

[Propellertop]

I think this has all been something of an overreaction.  If a player refused to go to the white house when George W Bush was in power, or refused to visit the Vatican, I'd applaud them for taking a stand.

Even though I may disagree with his politics, I have to respect his freedom to make such a statement.

That's about how I see it. Sounds dumb when ppl start talking about trading Thomas because of this 'insult'. Move on ppl.

 

[Kin]

From the man who brings Lincoln, Roosevelt and Jefferson into a discussion of Thomas declining to meet the current president in the year 2012.

Yes. I said, "the office held by..." and then those three names. That's not an overstatement. Those three guys did hold the office. Those are three of the men who built the prestige of the presidency. Because I was talking about respect for the presidency there's nothing overly dramatic about mentioning the guys who are the reason the office should be respected, even if you disagree with who ever is in it right now.

 

[Kin]

He's objecting to the government (or his idea of it) in about the best way he knows how. He doesn't like what they stand for.

Really? The best way this grown millionaire knows to voice his opposition to the policies of the government of his own country is to not show up if that government extends him an invitation to a day at one of it's most historic buildings? It's not writing about his actual beliefs or quitting his day job playing a game for millions to focus on the problem that is so drastic it requires that sort of distance from any of the nation's institutions?

Well, maybe there's a point there. If the "best way" people like Thomas know to object to their government is to whine and moan about it, maybe there's a reason the government doesn't reflect their beliefs.

I mean the analogy isn't great (ok it kinda sucks) but it's a free country and he's within his right to not turn up.

Sure. Just like he'd be well within his rights to go to twitter to say that his coach sucks or his teammates are bums.

He's publicly distancing himself from his team for no valid reason. That's the issue.

 

[crazyperfectdevil]

I think this has all been something of an overreaction.  If a player refused to go to the white house when George W Bush was in power, or refused to visit the Vatican, I'd applaud them for taking a stand.

Even though I may disagree with his politics, I have to respect his freedom to make such a statement.

I agree with you that it's an overreaction ..but I guess i have a problem with anyone patting him on the back for this..that sets the bar pretty low for what we expect out of a human being.  if this really is his way of protesting the concept of government in the US ..then it's the one that required the least effort ..and while he is of course free to do it ...it's hardly something to applaud ...

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

He's objecting to the government (or his idea of it) in about the best way he knows how. He doesn't like what they stand for.

Really? The best way this grown millionaire knows to voice his opposition to the policies of the government of his own country is to not show up if that government extends him an invitation to a day at one of it's most historic buildings? It's not writing about his actual beliefs or quitting his day job playing a game for millions to focus on the problem that is so drastic it requires that sort of distance from any of the nation's institutions?

Well, maybe there's a point there. If the "best way" people like Thomas know to object to their government is to whine and moan about it, maybe there's a reason the government doesn't reflect their beliefs.

I mean the analogy isn't great (ok it kinda sucks) but it's a free country and he's within his right to not turn up.

Sure. Just like he'd be well within his rights to go to twitter to say that his coach sucks or his teammates are bums.

He's publicly distancing himself from his team for no valid reason. That's the issue.

I'm not sure "whine and moan" describes what he did.

He declined an invitation and issued a short statement of about 100 words.

If the issue is his teammates, and they're ok with it and Chiarelli is ok with it then I don't get why you have a problem.

As for respecting the President because of what was established by Jefferson and Lincoln, well we'll have to disagree. For example, I'm sure there were many people who would've declined to meet with G.W. Bush based on his policies and incompetence as a President.

Thomas may have different opinions then I do, but I respect his freedom of choice and politics and refuse to judge him on whether or not he meets for a photo op with the President.

 

[Kin]

I'm not sure "whine and moan" describes what he did.

It does. There was no substance to it. It was the equivalent of a toddler throwing a tantrum.

If the issue is his teammates, and they're ok with it and Chiarelli is ok with it then I don't get why you have a problem.

Don't pretend you know how his teammates feel about it. Or Chiarelli. All you know is what they said publicly. But it's not like they're going to say anything to exacerbate the situation because they, unlike Thomas, aren't self-involved enough to distract the team further.

As for respecting the President because of what was established by Jefferson and Lincoln, well we'll have to disagree. For example, I'm sure there were many people who would've declined to meet with G.W. Bush based on his policies and incompetence as a President.

Well, let's think on that. W was president for 8 years. 20 players per hockey team is 160 players. 24 players per WS champs is 192 players. 12 Basketball players per team is 96 players. 53 football players per team is 424. So that's 872 players. Did any of them not show up to the White House when invited? And then release a statement declaring they did so for political reasons?

No, they didn't. This despite there actually being a couple of wars going on at the time to protest. That's because those 872 players(and various coaches) were able to put whatever issues they may have on hold to do something for the benefit of their team.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

He's been getting it pretty good in the Boston media:

Joe McDonald of ESPN Boston understands that. He wrote late Monday: ?In earlier posts on his Facebook page, Thomas writes about the Bruins? recent shootout victory in Philadelphia on Sunday, calling it ?a big TEAM? win, and added his congrats to the New England Patriots on their ?big TEAM? win in the AFC Championship Game. That sentiment was missing in Thomas?s decision not to go to the White House.?

?Shabby. Immature. Unprofessional. Self-centered. Bush league. Need I go on? All that and more applies to what Thomas did,? Kevin Paul Dupont wrote in The Boston Globe. ?Thomas needed to be there in solidarity, and celebration, with his team. It was the same government yesterday, and will be today, that protected his country, his security, his family, and his right to make $5 million a year, all last season. In his absence, he stole his teammates? spotlight. Win as a team. Lose as a team. And when asked to stand up and take a bow, then stand up there and suffer if need be, even if you don?t like the setting, the host, or any of the political trappings and tenets that come with it.?

Joe Haggerty of CSNE, whose Bruins Insider post on the incident largely plumbs Thomas?s political views and how they shaped his decision, recognized the goalie?s me-first outlook is nothing new when he wrote, ?Thomas made a pretty symbolic change at the beginning of last season when he drained the Black and Gold colors from his goaltending pads and goalie mask after a summer of trade rumors. Thomas removed the Bruins logo from his mask and instead replaced it with an image of the lucky coin he wears around his neck. The message was simple: From then on, Thomas was playing for himself first and the team second.?

http://nhl-red-light.si.com/2012/01/24/why-tim-thomas-white-house-snub-was-wrong/?sct=nhl_t11_a1

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

I'm not sure "whine and moan" describes what he did.

It does. There was no substance to it. It was the equivalent of a toddler throwing a tantrum.

If the issue is his teammates, and they're ok with it and Chiarelli is ok with it then I don't get why you have a problem.

Don't pretend you know how his teammates feel about it. Or Chiarelli. All you know is what they said publicly. But it's not like they're going to say anything to exacerbate the situation because they, unlike Thomas, aren't self-involved enough to distract the team further.

As for respecting the President because of what was established by Jefferson and Lincoln, well we'll have to disagree. For example, I'm sure there were many people who would've declined to meet with G.W. Bush based on his policies and incompetence as a President.

Well, let's think on that. W was president for 8 years. 20 players per hockey team is 160 players. 24 players per WS champs is 192 players. 12 Basketball players per team is 96 players. 53 football players per team is 424. So that's 872 players. Did any of them not show up to the White House when invited? And then release a statement declaring they did so for political reasons?

No, they didn't. This despite there actually being a couple of wars going on at the time to protest. That's because those 872 players(and various coaches) were able to put whatever issues they may have on hold to do something for the benefit of their team.

Well I guess you've read his comments then: http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=613279

If that's the equivalent of a toddler throwing a tantrum then you need to hang out with more toddlers (I have 2).

You were the one who brought up his team, saying his not going would cause problems. I can easily turn the "Don't pretend you know how his teammates feel" on you. You've got no idea either. What matters is that he continues to be a Vezina calibre goalie, which he's doing.

Ultimately Sport is about results. Thomas can be a self-centered jerk, but his play matters most. Not sure why this needs to be a big story. His team is still in 1st having won the Cup last year with Thomas' play being a very large part. That's really all anybody should care about.

 

[Kin]

Well I guess you've read his comments then: http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=613279

I did. I've commented on them. There's no substance to them. He doesn't say anything specific. There's no substantive difference between that and saying he isn't going because the president is a big neenerhead.

You were the one who brought up his team, saying his not going would cause problems. I can easily turn the "Don't pretend you know how his teammates feel" on you. You've got no idea either.

The difference is I'm not pretending to know how his teammates feel the way you are. I said he's publicly distancing himself from the team, not that his teammates will be mad at him.

But, of course, I'm sure you can quote me saying this will cause problems with his teammates.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

Well I guess you've read his comments then: http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=613279

I did. I've commented on them. There's no substance to them. He doesn't say anything specific. There's no substantive difference between that and saying he isn't going because the president is a big neenerhead.

You were the one who brought up his team, saying his not going would cause problems. I can easily turn the "Don't pretend you know how his teammates feel" on you. You've got no idea either.

The difference is I'm not pretending to know how his teammates feel the way you are. I said he's publicly distancing himself from the team, not that his teammates will be mad at him.

But, of course, I'm sure you can quote me saying this will cause problems with his teammates.

Well if it doesn't cause problems with his teammates and GM then who cares?

It doesn't affect their performance, the team is still one of the teams to beat in the NHL and Thomas is a Vezina winner and candidate.

He said he blames both parties. I'd have issue if he blamed Obama for all the issues in the country but he didn't. He has issue with the direction of the country and the political process as it stands today (which is different than when Jefferson and Lincoln were in office) and declined to visit the White House for those reasons.

If that's the kind of thing that makes international headlines then things are in a pretty sorry state, or it's a really slow news day.

 

[Kin]

Well if it doesn't cause problems with his teammates and GM then who cares?

Again, we don't know what this will mean with his teammates.

Some people have a problem with look-at-me acts by players regardless of how it affects their teammates. 

He said he blames both parties. I'd have issue if he blamed Obama for all the issues in the country but he didn't.

This isn't an issue I'm taking with his politics, outside of the mushy formlessness of them. If someone did this with GWB I'd feel the exact same way. The day wasn't about him, it was about his team.

He has issue with the direction of the country and the political process as it stands today (which is different than when Jefferson and Lincoln were in office) and declined to visit the White House for those reasons.

True. In Jefferson's and Lincoln's day the political process was dictated by the votes of the privileged few who the government allowed to vote. These days, it's open to everyone regardless of race and gender.

That was my original point about the idiocy of his statement. If he's going to openly pine for the ways in which the country isn't like it was at the time of the founder's then you should be pretty g-d specific about what changes you don't like. I mean, I'm guessing Mike Grier is pretty happy that things aren't like they were when Jefferson was in office.

 

[Tigger]

Man all those conscientious objectors and draft dodgers during the Vietnam war were suck wack-job jerks.

Thomas is dodging a draft or objecting to a war?

He's objecting to the government (or his idea of it) in about the best way he knows how. He doesn't like what they stand for.

I mean the analogy isn't great (ok it kinda sucks) but it's a free country and he's within his right to not turn up.

I appreciate your description of the analogy, it was bad but thanks for saying so.

Thomas may be within his rights and I said that if he really feels like he needs to take a stand then good on him and power to him, previously, but that doesn't mean I necessarily support selfish and generally short sighted stupidity, which this was on his part.

I mean, you may have the right of way as a pedestrian on the road but if you step out in front of oncoming traffic, you're right and dead.

Maybe he just likes getting hit by things, who knows.

Personally the only question I have for him is did he vote in the last election? cause if he did then he should acknowledge his respect for the position in kind.

 

[crazyperfectdevil]

i feel like this is the "extreme" version of not standing for the anthem ...you're of course free to do it ..but most people will probably think less of you if you do it...

 

[Tigger]

i feel like this is the "extreme" version of not standing for the anthem ...you're of course free to do it ..but most people will probably think less of you if you do it...

Try it during an OHL game, they might do more than that... imagine sitting and wearing a ballcap, oi!

 

[ZBBM]

i feel like this is the "extreme" version of not standing for the anthem ...you're of course free to do it ..but most people will probably think less of you if you do it...

Try it during an OHL game, they might do more than that... imagine sitting and wearing a ballcap, oi!

True no doubt, but it is ridiculous.  Nobody should be coerced to take part in a ceremony if they don't to.  And of course Thomas is free not to take part just the same.

But when you make a political statement, you should -- in a democracy -- be prepared to be criticized.  (Just as anyone who thinks it's OK to coerce people should be criticized.)  And that's where that one Boston sportswriter quoted above gets it right.  What Thomas and the rest of anti-government rightwingers utterly don't get, or refuse to see, is that the liberties, safety, and happiness that make up their secure lifestyles (and BTW the possibility of peaceful political dissent) has been made possible largely because of actions by the federal government.  It was the federal government that mandated workplace safety, clean air and water, Civil Rights, and on and on.  Not states.  And certainly not self-centered libertarians.

The Tea Party is a collection of ignorant ingrates, plain and simple.  Luckily for us, their moment in the sun has come and gone, as rational people have begun to call them out.

 

[Tigger]

i feel like this is the "extreme" version of not standing for the anthem ...you're of course free to do it ..but most people will probably think less of you if you do it...

Try it during an OHL game, they might do more than that... imagine sitting and wearing a ballcap, oi!

True no doubt, but it is ridiculous.  Nobody should be coerced to take part in a ceremony if they don't to.  And of course Thomas is free not to take part just the same.

Totally and if you believe in 'democracy' you have to acknowledge that and I have but I also think there are other and better ways to express that notion.

We've come a long way though, that's the kind of thing that would have shortened your life expectancy not long ago.

Freedom doesn't mean questioning the legitimacy of an atm asking what language you'd like your instant cash in, or roughly paraphrased...

 

[Tigger]

Tim Thomas: ?I?m tired of foreigners coming to America and trying to take our jobs!? Tuukka Rask: ?Dude, I?m standing right here.?

DownGoesBrown

 

[maplesyrup]

Tim Thomas: ?I?m tired of foreigners coming to America and trying to take our jobs!? Tuukka Rask: ?Dude, I?m standing right here.?

DownGoesBrown

That's hilarious! At some point, someone's going to have to put a muzzle on this guy.

Edit: If Thomas hasn't been muzzled already.