TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM

[Corn Flake]

We are told Burke and Bergevin are talking.  Dudley said a week ago he hadn't been offered anything, yet which also seems to suggest the Habs don't have permission yet.

The fact nothing has happened yet suggests everyone is playing nice here and/or maybe Burke is trying to do something to keep Dudley on board.  If Burke was going to let him go, it probably would have been done by now.

 

[Etiam Vultus]

As a courtesy, the Habs should give the Leafs notice that they plan to contact Dudley.  I don't think that they need the Leafs actual permission, since that would negate Dudley's right to take a new job.

Until such time as Dudley gives his notice and the 30 day period after that has passed, he is under contract to the Toronto Maple Leafs, and any other organization requires their permission to approach him and offer him a position. It's not a courtesy, it's the rules. Going around those rules is considered tampering.

Are these rules written down?

This is different from player's contracts.  This is an executive.  If Bell wants to hire a Rogers executive, they do not need to ask Rogers permission before they speak to him or her.  They DO need to make sure that there is no contractual provision that the individual cannot make the move.

If Dudley's contract permits him to take a job with another club, then it makes no sense that the Leafs can thwart the intent of that clause by refusing to grant permission for the other club to speak to him. 

 

[bustaheims]

Are these rules written down?

Yes. They're part of the various agreements NHL teams have with the league, etc. I'm pretty sure it's even written into the individual contracts. There's a reason teams are constantly asking for permission to talk to and/or hire members of other teams' front offices - they have to. Teams will often dent other teams that permission, even in some seemingly ridiculous circumstances. It happened to the Leafs a few years ago when Florida wouldn't let Nieuwendyk go until the day his contract officially expired.

As for Dudley's contract, I doubt it specifically states he can take a job with another team. What it allows is a period where he can terminate the contract with the Leafs. Until he does that (which, as far as we know, he has not), he's bound by all the terms of the contract - which includes not taking a job with another NHL team.

 

[Etiam Vultus]

I would be surprised if Dudley's contract does not explicitly state that he is permitted to discuss a more senior position with another team and to accept such a position, provided it complies with certain time constraints, e.g. 30 days following the end of the season.

It is quite common for employment contracts to have an out clause if there is the opportunity for advancement.  Dudley has been the GM of four NHL teams.  He is underemployed in his current role with the Leafs.  With as much experience as Dudley has with contracts, it would be amazing if he had not included a provision in his own contract that gives him the freedom to accept a better job. 

 

[Corn Flake]

I would be surprised if Dudley's contract does not explicitly state that he is permitted to discuss a more senior position with another team and to accept such a position, provided it complies with certain time constraints, e.g. 30 days following the end of the season.

It is quite common for employment contracts to have an out clause if there is the opportunity for advancement.  Dudley has been the GM of four NHL teams.  He is underemployed in his current role with the Leafs.  With as much experience as Dudley has with contracts, it would be amazing if he had not included a provision in his own contract that gives him the freedom to accept a better job.

Teams don't usually ever stand in the way of this type of thing but there is always the "ask permission" part.. you can't have an exec talking to teams whenever he feels like it.  Given the timing, division, draft situations and Dudley's role in the latter, this one is pretty sensitive.

 

[Kin]

It is quite common for employment contracts to have an out clause if there is the opportunity for advancement.  Dudley has been the GM of four NHL teams.  He is underemployed in his current role with the Leafs.  With as much experience as Dudley has with contracts, it would be amazing if he had not included a provision in his own contract that gives him the freedom to accept a better job.

I think there's a difference here, though, in that he's moving from a position with the Leafs to take a secondary role with another team. When Nieuwendyk was poached to run the Stars there seemed to be quite a bit less of an issue because there was no denying that being the #1 guy in Dallas is more than he was here.

But in this case? These jobs don't have definitions that are universal and I don't know if it's fair to assume that there's necessarily a clear promotion involved in going from being a director of player-personnel to being an AGM somewhere else. To get a sense of that you have to know what the management structure is like in both places and what someone's day to day responsibilities are.

Personally, I think it's nuts. The Canadiens are a rival within the division. They're drafting ahead of the Leafs in what's a very important draft for both teams. I'd personally hope that, if nothing else, this changes the contracts that the club gives to executives.

Personally, I think letting an executive out of his contract to seek advancement elsewhere makes as much sense as letting a player do the same.

 

[rdowdall]

It is quite common for employment contracts to have an out clause if there is the opportunity for advancement.  Dudley has been the GM of four NHL teams.  He is underemployed in his current role with the Leafs.  With as much experience as Dudley has with contracts, it would be amazing if he had not included a provision in his own contract that gives him the freedom to accept a better job.

I think there's a difference here, though, in that he's moving from a position with the Leafs to take a secondary role with another team. When Nieuwendyk was poached to run the Stars there seemed to be quite a bit less of an issue because there was no denying that being the #1 guy in Dallas is more than he was here.

But in this case? These jobs don't have definitions that are universal and I don't know if it's fair to assume that there's necessarily a clear promotion involved in going from being a director of player-personnel to being an AGM somewhere else. To get a sense of that you have to know what the management structure is like in both places and what someone's day to day responsibilities are.

Personally, I think it's nuts. The Canadiens are a rival within the division. They're drafting ahead of the Leafs in what's a very important draft for both teams. I'd personally hope that, if nothing else, this changes the contracts that the club gives to executives.

Personally, I think letting an executive out of his contract to seek advancement elsewhere makes as much sense as letting a player do the same.

Are their contracts timed based, or are they more of a general "You have this position until you quit or are fired" type of contract?

 

[Etiam Vultus]

1)  I believe that all contracts for front office staff and coaches are time based for a specific number of years.

2)  Contracts for head coaches and general managers generally do not include an out clause.

3)  It is different for assistant coaches and other front office staff, and for very good reasons.  Their contracts may or may not include an out clause, but there is also a general practice to at least consider a request to allow an employee to leave before his contract is finished.  Think about it.  Would you want to hire someone who has no potential for a promotion, or would you rather hire someone who has the ability and the desire to move up?  If it is the latter, then you have to be prepared to accept the fact that some will move on.

4)  There are limits to how and when an employee under contract can move to a new team.  It would be rare to permit a move during the season.  (Obviously this does not apply to a coach who has been fired and is being paid, but not working.)  It is also uncommon to facilitate lateral moves.  Typically, an employee will be permitted to move if it is a promotion and happens during the off-season.

5)  It is common for the team who is looking to hire to ask permission of the employee's current employer.  In many cases, it is mandatory.  For example, the Leafs had to receive permission from the Ducks to talk to Carlyle because he was still under contract.  The Ducks could have refused.  In another situation, e.g. the team seeking permission was fighting for a playoff spot with the Ducks, the permission could have been refused.

6)  It is not certain whether the Habs had to ask the Leafs for permission to talk to Dudley.  Based on Dudley's past experience and the fact that it is believed he had an out clause, it is doubtful that the Leafs could have refused a request that occurred during the off-season and within the terms of Dudley's contract.

7)  Dudley is NOT required to  give 30 days notice that he is quitting his job and then start looking for a new one.  He could start looking for another job after the season was over and leave 30 days later, but he is not obligated to leave if he does not find a better opportunity.

8)  Brian Burke has his faults, but it is clear that he has a very high moral code.  He has stated on numerous occasions that he expects to lose some of his front office staff to more senior positions with other teams.  He has also made it clear that he does not see that as a problem, but an advantage.  In his words, it gives the Leafs a strong friend in another organization to facilitate trades, share information, etc.  Burke's criticism of Kevin Lowe for tendering an offer sheet to Dustin Penner was not because the offer was made, but because it was made without any attempt to contact the Ducks and try to work out a trade beforehand.  Note that Burke reacquired a Leafs draft choice so that he would have been in a position to offer sheet Kessel if necessary, but his first choice was to work out a trade with Boston.  Burke's self-imposed trade embargo around Christmas may or may not be good for the team, but it is because of a genuine concern about the welfare of players and their families.  I do not believe that Burke would prevent any of his employees from advancing, but he would expect the new team to be reasonable, just as he would be.  Given the history and profile of Toronto and Montreal, I expect that something will be worked out that is fair to everyone.

 

[moon111]

There are rumblings that Dudley's contract allows him to accept a new job after the Leafs season is over by giving 30 days notice.  It is impossible to tell how accurate this is, but assuming it is true then there is nothing Burke can do to stop Dudley from starting with Montreal prior to the draft.

It is interesting to note that Chicago is in a similar position, with Bergevin leaving a key position to join the Habs.  It is expected that the Black Hawks, Leafs and others will push for changes so that a key manager is not allowed to join a new team between the end of the season and the start of free agency on July 1. 

Even if that does come to pass, it would not affect the situation with Dudley.  If he leaves to join Montreal before the amateur draft, I suggest that we just grin and bear it and give him a nice parting gift; perhaps something like a 245 pound right hand defenseman with a cap hit of $4.5 million for the next two years.

Don't the Leafs have to give permission for the HAbs to offer Dudley a contract though?  As far as I've heard this past weekend, Dudley said he hasn't been contacted by the Habs.  Just don't give the Habs permission until a few days before the draft. Then Dudley has his 30 days notice which passes draft day.

As a courtesy, the Habs should give the Leafs notice that they plan to contact Dudley.  I don't think that they need the Leafs actual permission, since that would negate Dudley's right to take a new job.

I took Dudley's comments that he had not been contacted yet by the Habs with a large truckload of salt.  It reminded me of the free agents who sign a new contracts one minute after the free agency period begins and we are expected to believe that their new teams were not in touch with them and their agents until just then.

FWIW, the Leafs and Habs cannot switch draft positions since there is a league rule that there is no compensation when an executive moves from one team to another.

Hence why Komisarek is getting thrown in the deal.

 

[Kin]

Think about it.  Would you want to hire someone who has no potential for a promotion, or would you rather hire someone who has the ability and the desire to move up?  If it is the latter, then you have to be prepared to accept the fact that some will move on.

I don't think this makes a lot of sense. Yes, as an organization, you should want to hire people who have the capability and the drive to advance. But that doesn't mean you should serve as a training ground for other organizations. Much like executives, the Leafs should want to sign players who will eventually be more than what they currently are but that doesn't mean that, once those players advance, the Leafs should just let them walk away from contracts they signed if they think a better opportunity presents itself elsewhere.

This isn't a situation where someone has put in a bunch of years and stands no chance of advancement. Dudley has worked for the team for less than a year. If he leaves now, he essentially wouldn't have been with the team for even a single draft.

How does that make sense for the leafs to hire people with a specialty in player development and scouting and then essentially not benefit from that. More to the point, how is it even remotely possible that the work that Dudley has done this year while in the employ of the Leafs with regards to amateur players wouldn't influence what he did in Montreal? If Dudley goes to Montreal before the draft and offers them his opinion on amateur players then even if he doesn't tip the Leafs hands the end result for the Leafs will be that they paid for the Montreal Canadiens to do some scouting.

Non-compete clauses exist in other businesses. They haven't ruined companies that have them because they're still offering highly sought after jobs and compensating their employees well. An argument could be made that if someone puts in many years with an organization and adds to their success over those years that you should let them out of a deal to pursue other opportunities elsewhere but this isn't that.

Players, executives, it doesn't matter. If someone signs a contract they have a responsibility to see it through, not jump ship the second a better opportunity presents itself elsewhere.

Enforcing those contracts should be an industry standard or, at the very least, a team like the Maple Leafs should be able to protect themselves from being directly and negatively impacted by their employees jumping ship to a rival just before the most crucial point in a front office's season.

 

[TML fan]

Couldn't Dudley just quit, and then sign on with Montreal? I'm not sure how that works in this case.

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

Couldn't Dudley just quit, and then sign on with Montreal? I'm not sure how that works in this case.

No, he still has a contract with Toronto.  He can't just quit and get another job tomorrow, this isn't Tim Horton's Vs. McDonald's.

 

[bustaheims]

Couldn't Dudley just quit, and then sign on with Montreal? I'm not sure how that works in this case.

That's sort of what his out-clause is, though, being that none of us know the specifics of it, it's hard to say for certain. Based on my understanding of things, he can give notice and, after a 30 day period, he's free to sign on wherever. Now, being that Dudley wants to continue to work in the NHL and is an honourable person, he's not going to just leave the Leafs in the lurch and bolt to a rival organization at such a sensitive time in the year, which is why we are where we are with all of this.

 

[Etiam Vultus]

Yes, as an organization, you should want to hire people who have the capability and the drive to advance. But that doesn't mean you should serve as a training ground for other organizations.

There are two issues here.

Organization charts are a triangle - the higher you go in the organization, the less space there is.  Thus, if you fill as many places on your organization chart as you can with people with the potential to move up, some of them are going to have to leave the organization to reach their full potential.  Dallas Eakins is a case in point.  When Ron Wilson was fired, Burke chose to hire Randy Carlyle.  Dallas Eakins was an option, but at the time he had zero experience in the playoffs as a head coach.  Thus, Burke went with the candidate with a Stanley Cup ring as a head coach.  In an interview, though, Burke said that he believed Dallas Eakins would be an excellent NHL head coach some day, but he may have to leave the Leafs to have that opportunity.  Similarly, Burke has said that he believes that Nonis, Polin Loiselle, and Dudley all have potential for more senior positions and he expects that some of them will leave for a better position.

With Dudley, it is hard to argue that the Leafs developed him.  He has been a GM for four NHL teams already!  He became unexpectedly unemployed when the Thrashers were sold and moved to Winnipeg and the new owners wanted a different front office.  He joined the Leafs just prior to the 2011 draft.  (Did anyone on this site suggest that this was unfair to Winnipeg?)  At the time, it was pretty clear that Dudley was underemployed in the position that he was taking with the Leafs, but it was a good short term solution for him to stay active and for the Leafs to benefit from his expertise.  None of us know the details of his current contract or the nature of his proposed position with the Habs, but it seems logical that he would have an out clause and it appears that he would be second-in-command in Montreal, when he is clearly not that with the Leafs.

I wish Dudley well in Montreal, finishing just behind the Leafs every year.  I think that there is enough professionalism in both organizations that Dudley will make the transfer on good terms.

 

[Tigger]

It also seems logical that the Leafs would be able to protect themselves from getting burned at the draft at the last minute by an employee, who was directly tied to that process, jumping ship.

How would it be unfair to Winnipeg, they let him go.

 

[bustaheims]

He became unexpectedly unemployed when the Thrashers were sold and moved to Winnipeg and the new owners wanted a different front office.  He joined the Leafs just prior to the 2011 draft.  (Did anyone on this site suggest that this was unfair to Winnipeg?) 

There are a few significant differences between that situation and the situation at hand. Firstly, Dudley joined the Leafs at the draft - too late to really contribute to the scouting staffs' ranking process. The Leafs' list was already well established at that point, and, as he had previously been GM in Atlanta, he wouldn't have been that deeply involved in the scouting process (GMs tend to be heavily involved in 1st round guys and not so involved in the rest). With the Leafs, he's been heavily involved in the scouting process leading up to this draft. Secondly, Winnipeg's pick was before Toronto's in every round, so, even if Dudley had knowledge of Winnipeg's plans, passing them on to Toronto wouldn't have had an impact on the newly christened Jets. On top of that, I'm almost certain the Leafs and Jets came to an agreement that Dudley wouldn't influence the Leafs picks in that draft as part of Dudley's hiring process. Montreal, on the other hand, drafts 2 spots ahead of the Leafs in every round where they hold their own picks. And then, of course, there's the fact that Winnipeg removed Dudley from his position prior to the draft whereas the Leafs don't appear to have any intention of doing the same.

 

[Kin]

Organization charts are a triangle - the higher you go in the organization, the less space there is.  Thus, if you fill as many places on your organization chart as you can with people with the potential to move up, some of them are going to have to leave the organization to reach their full potential.  Dallas Eakins is a case in point.  When Ron Wilson was fired, Burke chose to hire Randy Carlyle.  Dallas Eakins was an option, but at the time he had zero experience in the playoffs as a head coach.  Thus, Burke went with the candidate with a Stanley Cup ring as a head coach.  In an interview, though, Burke said that he believed Dallas Eakins would be an excellent NHL head coach some day, but he may have to leave the Leafs to have that opportunity.  Similarly, Burke has said that he believes that Nonis, Polin Loiselle, and Dudley all have potential for more senior positions and he expects that some of them will leave for a better position.

But you just illustrated the perfect example of the difference between how a guy in Eakins position might reasonably feel about his prospects for advancement and how Dudley should feel. Eakins has put in his time with the organization and, when there was an opportunity within the organization for advancement, he got passed over. If someone came calling with the offer of a better position in another organization, the Leafs should probably let him go because they didn't give him the chance to advance.

That's not the case with Dudley. He's put in less then one year. He hasn't been passed over for anything. There's a difference between there not being opportunity for advancement, which Eakins could legitimately claim, and there not being immediate advancement.

The Leafs, to be fair to their employees, should recognize the guys who've put in a lot of time for them and who they've promoted as far as they want in their organization and let them pursue opportunities elsewhere. That's simply not the case with Dudley. He's a newcomer who might very well move up in the organization if a guy like Nonis or Poulin get poached. The Leafs don't have an obligation to let guys out of their contracts because they aren't getting everything they want immediately.

With Dudley, it is hard to argue that the Leafs developed him.  He has been a GM for four NHL teams already!

That would be a valid argument if we were talking about development in the same context we talk about it in for a CHL player but what we're talking about is adapting anybody from outside of an organization to their role within a new organization. Every organization is going to have their different approaches and needs and philosophies. The way the Leafs have "developed" Dudley is in acclimating him to the needs and goals of the organization and, hopefully, giving him the resources to be the DPP that the organization would want.

Any front office personnel is going to have to be at their job for more than a year to have a significant impact. By going out and hiring someone new for the job next year they'll have to spend time getting that new guy up to speed and get him used to what Brian Burke wants and expects out of his organization.

It's not unreasonable for the Leafs to expect some sort of return on what they put into Rick Dudley, both from a financial standpoint and from a time standpoint.

He became unexpectedly unemployed when the Thrashers were sold and moved to Winnipeg and the new owners wanted a different front office.  He joined the Leafs just prior to the 2011 draft.  (Did anyone on this site suggest that this was unfair to Winnipeg?)

That doesn't make any sense. He was unemployed. If he was vital to Winnipeg's preparation for the draft in that franchise's POV he wouldn't have been unemployed. By making him unemployed, Winnipeg was inviting teams to hire the guy and reap the benefits of his knowledge.

I get that it would be a promotion for Dudley and, as a result, I understand why he'd want to take the job. But I also understand that if Tukka Rask went to the Boston Bruins and said he'd rather go elsewhere so he could start 65 games a year the Bruins would still put their own interests above the advancement of one of their employees and nobody would think that they were being unreasonable.

 

[L K]

He became unexpectedly unemployed when the Thrashers were sold and moved to Winnipeg and the new owners wanted a different front office.  He joined the Leafs just prior to the 2011 draft.  (Did anyone on this site suggest that this was unfair to Winnipeg?) 

There are a few significant differences between that situation and the situation at hand. Firstly, Dudley joined the Leafs at the draft - too late to really contribute to the scouting staffs' ranking process. The Leafs' list was already well established at that point, and, as he had previously been GM in Atlanta, he wouldn't have been that deeply involved in the scouting process (GMs tend to be heavily involved in 1st round guys and not so involved in the rest). With the Leafs, he's been heavily involved in the scouting process leading up to this draft. Secondly, Winnipeg's pick was before Toronto's in every round, so, even if Dudley had knowledge of Winnipeg's plans, passing them on to Toronto wouldn't have had an impact on the newly christened Jets. On top of that, I'm almost certain the Leafs and Jets came to an agreement that Dudley wouldn't influence the Leafs picks in that draft as part of Dudley's hiring process. Montreal, on the other hand, drafts 2 spots ahead of the Leafs in every round where they hold their own picks. And then, of course, there's the fact that Winnipeg removed Dudley from his position prior to the draft whereas the Leafs don't appear to have any intention of doing the same.

Also there is that huge difference between being fired because Winnipeg wanted to hire the Manitoba Moose organization and Montreal trying to poach him to work in their organization.  Burke doesn't want Dudley to leave.

 

[Zee]

Draft day is June 22nd.  One more week or so and we're within the 30-day window he can give the Leafs to leave.  Hopefully he starts with the Habs after the draft day.

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

Draft day is June 22nd.  One more week or so and we're within the 30-day window he can give the Leafs to leave.  Hopefully he starts with the Habs after the draft day.

I thought it was 30 days after the last regular season game?