Tyson Barrie Conundrum

[ZBBM]

<transplanted from the Muz thread>

Why?  I genuinely would like to know your thinking.

You keep saying " they could have gotten *something* for him, and should have" without there being any evidence to support that statement; meanwhile today is the smoking-gun that says that the Leafs management team didn't receive an offer for him that they considered worth going ahead with.

With any player there's some sort of cut-off beyond which it simply doesn't make sense to do a deal. What's your cut-off with Barrie? Would a 4th round pick have satisfied you? A 3rd? A 2nd? A 2028 7th rounder? A bag of used pucks? It would be helpful to know what you think Dubas was supposed to have gotten (and bonus points if you can also identify a couple teams that could have met your expectations and benefited from it themselves).

You seem to want to project on me that I think he has no value.  I've never said that.  What I've always said is that he's the wrong fit for the Leafs.  I'd have moved him for just about anything ... because he's not re-signing here.

Right?  Right??

How many of you people who are criticizing me want to re-sign Tyson Barrie this summer at whatever UFA price he will command?  Not a discount, but what he will likely get.  If you do, explain to me how he is the best use of our remaining d-man cap space going forward, better than any other possible option.  Especially now that Dubas has committed to Muzzin.

Pardon me if I missed it, but I don't recall anyone in the run-up to this deadline saying if only we could lock down both Barrie and Muzzin long-term, everything would be OK on the blueline.

This is another instance of the Leafs letting a UFA walk without getting anything in return.  Once he leaves, Dubas will have basically traded Kadri for Alexander Kerfoot.  Not a success.

 

[ZBBM]

Why?  I genuinely would like to know your thinking.

Because, I don't think a 3rd pick is more valuable that holding on to him, and hoping the embarrassment the team faced on Saturday lights a fire under their asses. It doesn't help the team in the present, and it's unlikely to help the team in the near future. A 3rd pick is almost certainly at least 3 years away from becoming a contributor for the team - and that's if they beat the odds and are actually an NHL player. That kind of deal doesn't move the needle enough for the kind of message it sends.

Well, like I said elsewhere the players "sent a message" Saturday night, and that message is "We are soooooo not contenders, folks, sorry to have gotten your hopes up."  I hope you're right and I'm wrong, but I don't think keeping Barrie is going to be the magic key that suddenly unlocks the secrets of maturity and competitiveness for this group.

 

[Andy007]

Moved him for "just about anything?" A team in a win-now situation sitting in the thick of a playoff race/spot should trade who, right now, is their #1 defenceman for just about anything? Absolute silliness.

And as for your other silly comment; even ignoring the fact that the Leafs received a full year of Barrie at a minimal cap hit, a key part of the trade, you're left with 2 years of Kadri @ 4.5 million (age 30, 31) for 3 years of Kerfoot @ 3.5 million (age 26, 27, 28). I'm not sure that's as unsuccessful as you think it is.

 

[ZBBM]

Moved him for "just about anything?" A team in a win-now situation sitting in the thick of a playoff race/spot should trade who, right now, is their #1 defenceman for just about anything? Absolute silliness.

And as for your other silly comment; even ignoring the fact that the Leafs received a full year of Barrie at a minimal cap hit, a key part of the trade, you're left with 2 years of Kadri @ 4.5 million (age 30, 31) for 3 years of Kerfoot @ 3.5 million (age 26, 27, 28). I'm not sure that's as unsuccessful as you think it is.

They aren't winning the Cup now.  And I don't believe for a second that the Kadri deal was the only one open to Dubas.

 

[Hobbes]

You seem to want to project on me that I think he has no value.  I've never said that.

What I asked, several times now, without getting any response is what you feel would have been an acceptable return.

I get it..you think he has value. You don't think he's a good fit in Toronto based on his play this year. So far, I completely agree with you. What you've been projecting, however, whether you intended to or not, is a "get rid of him at any price" mentality. My quarrel with that is that I think he still have some value to the Leafs even if it's just his body occupying a RD slot for the next 6 weeks (or more if the Leafs make the playoffs).

TSN reported that the Leafs were asking for a 1st and a prospect (though there's no way to verify that's what they actually asked). If someone had been willing to pay that, sure, I'd have been perfectly content with trading him. If the most someone had offered was a 3nd, I'd have taken a pass because I don't think that pick is particularly valuable relative to what he might be worth to us even for the short time remaining before his contract expires. Somewhere in the middle there is my "break point" for when I would or wouldn't trade him. I'd happily take any lottery 1st, even without an extra prospect. For a late round 1st I'd want something else on top.

So for me, the equation is "who would give the Leafs a lottery 1st, or a late 1st and a prospect (and has the necessary cap space)?" and I can't really think of anyone off hand who is going to pay that, for exactly the same reason you want to get rid of him: he's a rental.

It's obvious that you don't place much (any?) value for him being on the roster for the next few weeks so your break point is going to be a LOT lower than mine. My honest question was "what is it?"

 

[bustaheims]

Well, like I said elsewhere the players "sent a message" Saturday night, and that message is "We are soooooo not contenders, folks, sorry to have gotten your hopes up."  I hope you're right and I'm wrong, but I don't think keeping Barrie is going to be the magic key that suddenly unlocks the secrets of maturity and competitiveness for this group.

Trading him for pieces that the odds are against ever contributing to the NHL team doesn?t do that, either. All it says is ?we give up.? Significant future pieces, like a 1st round pick or a higher end prospect would have made for a worthwhile trade. Even another top 4 RHD could have made sense. But, clearly, the offers out there were not of that calibre.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

Why?  I genuinely would like to know your thinking.

Because, I don't think a 3rd pick is more valuable that holding on to him, and hoping the embarrassment the team faced on Saturday lights a fire under their asses. It doesn't help the team in the present, and it's unlikely to help the team in the near future. A 3rd pick is almost certainly at least 3 years away from becoming a contributor for the team - and that's if they beat the odds and are actually an NHL player. That kind of deal doesn't move the needle enough for the kind of message it sends.

Well, like I said elsewhere the players "sent a message" Saturday night, and that message is "We are soooooo not contenders, folks, sorry to have gotten your hopes up."  I hope you're right and I'm wrong, but I don't think keeping Barrie is going to be the magic key that suddenly unlocks the secrets of maturity and competitiveness for this group.

If we're talking about "sending a message", well, one could argue that if the team dumped Barrie for a mere 3rd rounder, the message that they're sending to the team is that Barrie was the problem.  It also sends the message to other GMs that Dubas can be lowballed.

Like most people here other than you, for a variety of reasons I'm in the camp that says dumping Barrie for next to nothing is the wrong move.

 

[Kin]

Moved him for "just about anything?" A team in a win-now situation sitting in the thick of a playoff race/spot should trade who, right now, is their #1 defenceman for just about anything? Absolute silliness.

This is what I was getting at. Imagine Dubas or Shanahan going to the board and, after a pretty embarrassing loss, trying to convince them that the team should deal a significant blow to their playoff hopes and the millions of dollars in revenue that would represent for draft picks that were unlikely to result in NHL players or be a major element of a trade.

 

[Hobbes]

Moved him for "just about anything?" A team in a win-now situation sitting in the thick of a playoff race/spot should trade who, right now, is their #1 defenceman for just about anything? Absolute silliness.

This is what I was getting at. Imagine Dubas or Shanahan going to the board and, after a pretty embarrassing loss, trying to convince them that the team should deal a significant blow to their playoff hopes and the millions of dollars in revenue that would represent for draft picks that were unlikely to result in NHL players or be a major element of a trade.

Particularly when one of those board members happens to hold the national broadcast rights and would stand to benefit rather more handsomely from a Leafs-Bolts first round match-up over a Panthers-Bolts one, even if  the series ends up being a Tampa sweep.

 

[Kin]

Particularly when one of those board members happens to hold the national broadcast rights and would stand to benefit rather more handsomely from a Leafs-Bolts first round match-up over a Panthers-Bolts one, even if  the series ends up being a Tampa sweep.

And the thing is, as much as I think current ownership is happy to bone over fans in terms of extracting money from us, they've been pretty good in terms of running the team. Letting Dubas fire Babcock with a ton of money on his deal, being ok with structuring deals with big money up front and in signing bonuses, okaying various real money losing but team strengthening things...

I think you'd really need to justify trading Barrie from a strategic standpoint and the whole "a 7th round pick is still an asset!" sort of dogma isn't it.

 

[Highlander]

Bomb from the top of the circles of a silky Marner feed >>> desperation bomb from where the blueline meets the boards

Both Muzzin and Barrie have curtailed their tendency to fire at will in recent weeks.

Keefe has told them not to shoot until they see the whites of their eyes.

 

[Highlander]

<transplanted from the Muz thread>

Why?  I genuinely would like to know your thinking.

You keep saying " they could have gotten *something* for him, and should have" without there being any evidence to support that statement; meanwhile today is the smoking-gun that says that the Leafs management team didn't receive an offer for him that they considered worth going ahead with.

With any player there's some sort of cut-off beyond which it simply doesn't make sense to do a deal. What's your cut-off with Barrie? Would a 4th round pick have satisfied you? A 3rd? A 2nd? A 2028 7th rounder? A bag of used pucks? It would be helpful to know what you think Dubas was supposed to have gotten (and bonus points if you can also identify a couple teams that could have met your expectations and benefited from it themselves).

You seem to want to project on me that I think he has no value.  I've never said that.  What I've always said is that he's the wrong fit for the Leafs.  I'd have moved him for just about anything ... because he's not re-signing here.

Right?  Right??

How many of you people who are criticizing me want to re-sign Tyson Barrie this summer at whatever UFA price he will command?  Not a discount, but what he will likely get.  If you do, explain to me how he is the best use of our remaining d-man cap space going forward, better than any other possible option.  Especially now that Dubas has committed to Muzzin.

Pardon me if I missed it, but I don't recall anyone in the run-up to this deadline saying if only we could lock down both Barrie and Muzzin long-term, everything would be OK on the blueline.

This is another instance of the Leafs letting a UFA walk without getting anything in return.  Once he leaves, Dubas will have basically traded Kadri for Alexander Kerfoot.  Not a success.

Actually it is a huge success, as much as I loved Amazin Nazim, he was a concrete head, he screwed us in two consecutive series with Boston, whilst Kerfoot is a Rhodes Scholar, Noble Prize Winner and Oscar nominated best supporting Centre.  He will be a good fill in and if by some miracle of God, the Leafs get to a series with Boston this year, you can be assured that Kerfoot will be in Game 7 trying to move us on to round 2.  Kadri, I am not so sure.  If he only had a brain...

 

[Highlander]

Particularly when one of those board members happens to hold the national broadcast rights and would stand to benefit rather more handsomely from a Leafs-Bolts first round match-up over a Panthers-Bolts one, even if  the series ends up being a Tampa sweep.

And the thing is, as much as I think current ownership is happy to bone over fans in terms of extracting money from us, they've been pretty good in terms of running the team. Letting Dubas fire Babcock with a ton of money on his deal, being ok with structuring deals with big money up front and in signing bonuses, okaying various real money losing but team strengthening things...

I think you'd really need to justify trading Barrie from a strategic standpoint and the whole "a 7th round pick is still an asset!" sort of dogma isn't it.

Only if Bergman is making Pick 7, Engvall, Johnsson (wasn't he responsible for Gunnerson as well?).

 

[rdowdall]

Bomb from the top of the circles of a silky Marner feed >>> desperation bomb from where the blueline meets the boards

Both Muzzin and Barrie have curtailed their tendency to fire at will in recent weeks.

Yeah, and I think that if they play patient and use the strengths that they have on the ice, then there is a place for Barrie.  No other Leaf dman has a shot like his.  Both Rielly and Barrie are great offensively, but in different ways.

Part of their problem isn't just working hard, but making smart decisions with the puck.  There has been a lot of passing when they should be shooting and vice versa.

 

[Highlander]

I advocate that Barrie is given a double Valium before every game. Calm, under pressure, what pressure, no don't shoot the puck right away, maybe move in a little closer, oh theres Mitch at the side of the net, perhaps I will pass it to him, oh I am at the bottom of the circle, perhaps I'll shoot...
Let's slow the game down for him.

 

[ZBBM]

So, to review, we couldn't possibly have traded Barrie for anything less than a small fortune because:

1.  Doing so would "deal a significant blow to our playoff hopes."  If Dubas had managed to roll Benning or whoever and get a 1st and a prospect coming back, I somehow don't think I'd be hearing any whining about how *that* trade "deals a significant blow to our playoff hopes."
2.  Of ... theoretical TV ratings.  TV.  Ratings.
3.  Trading him would send the message to the rest of the team that he alone was the problem.  Even if that were the intent, which would be a mighty big stretch to think so, if each and every one of this crew hasn't already looked in the mirror and said, "Yeah, I myself am part of the problem, I need to be better, I need to try harder and play smarter every night" or some such, then I submit things are pretty hopeless and we might as well have traded Matthews.
4.  We don't want to trade him, we want to re-sign him in the summer for whatever his market value is ? he's just that important.  Oh wait ... scratch that.
5.  Consistency is important and since we let players of the caliber of Gardiner and Bozak and JVR walk w/o any return whatsoever, well, let's keep 'er goin'!
6.  Trading him would undermine the Success Narrative of the Kadri trade, and that would send a life-sapping message to ? well, somebody out there ? that Dubas does not always achieve success.

 

[Deebo]

So, to review, we couldn't possibly have traded Barrie for anything less than a small fortune because:

1.  Doing so would "deal a significant blow to our playoff hopes."  If Dubas had managed to roll Benning or whoever and get a 1st and a prospect coming back, I somehow don't think I'd be hearing any whining about how *that* trade "deals a significant blow to our playoff hopes."

Yes, dealing a significant blow to playoff hopes would be more palatable if there were actual valuable pieces coming back, not a 3rd round pick or something like that.

I think that makes perfect sense.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

So, to review, we couldn't possibly have traded Barrie for anything less than a small fortune because:

1.  Doing so would "deal a significant blow to our playoff hopes."  If Dubas had managed to roll Benning or whoever and get a 1st and a prospect coming back, I somehow don't think I'd be hearing any whining about how *that* trade "deals a significant blow to our playoff hopes."
2.  Of ... theoretical TV ratings.  TV.  Ratings.
3.  Trading him would send the message to the rest of the team that he alone was the problem.  Even if that were the intent, which would be a mighty big stretch to think so, if each and every one of this crew hasn't already looked in the mirror and said, "Yeah, I myself am part of the problem, I need to be better, I need to try harder and play smarter every night" or some such, then I submit things are pretty hopeless and we might as well have traded Matthews.
4.  We don't want to trade him, we want to re-sign him in the summer for whatever his market value is ? he's just that important.  Oh wait ... scratch that.
5.  Consistency is important and since we let players of the caliber of Gardiner and Bozak and JVR walk w/o any return whatsoever, well, let's keep 'er goin'!
6.  Trading him would undermine the Success Narrative of the Kadri trade, and that would send a life-sapping message to ? well, somebody out there ? that Dubas does not always achieve success.

 

[hockeyfan1]

I commend Dubas for not bowing to any media/social media scrutiny/pressure, etc., in not trading Barrie.  He stood his ground and what he believed to be best for his club.  Why trade for lesser value in return?  Just to get rid of the problem, or at least what is perceived to be the problem?  No.

It?s not up to Kyle nor Sheldon, but up to Auston, Mitch, John, & company to convince themselves that they?ve just got to not only be better, but pay more attention to details, be more competitive, and to really really want to make the playoffs, regardless of result.

Just to make the playoffs may already be sounding clich? considering the fact that the Leafs have yet to get past the first round.  However, if they were to miss the post-season, it would be worse than making it for the sake of making it,  for the simple reason that the club and it?s management team would be considered an abject failure by many.

So, the solution to the problem then is to just make the playoffs and take it from there.  No one expects the Maple Leafs to win the Stanley Cup today, but the expectations of working with due diligence on a goal to achieve is very high among the Leaf faithful.  The Leafs know it, Keefe knows it, Dubas knows it.

To say that the players couldn?t care less whether they?ll be playing in the post-season, or whether they?ll remain with the team barring failure, is in itself an aberration.

I remember Rick Vaive when he said ?...if you make $100,000 a year and can?t get motivated, something?s wrong.? 
Today?s hockey players make more ten times in the vicinity of the above-mentioned  amount.  To say that they couldn?t care less the outcome, or that they couldn?t care less about improving themselves, is tantamount to rubbish.

The Leafs know what they want.  That?s the easy part.  How to elevate yourself to a higher plateau in order to reach there and achieve it is another.

I?m still being optimistic that they?ll finish in third in their division.  Eventually, with all of the injured back, and with Andersen back to form, it?ll boost the team?s confidence no doubt.

Just trying to stay positive.  Take that, David Ayres!