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Useless Thread

Potvin29 said:
Sucker Punch said:
It was the statement that the judge made about taking into consideration his ethnicity and alcohol abuse when determining a sentence that bugged me more than anything else.

Why?  She's required to do so by the Criminal Code, and having read a bit about the history and current status of aboriginals and aboriginal crime in Canada, it seems like a fairly reasonable consideration in sentencing.

I understand that she has to do it, but I don't like it, and I don't understand why.

Could you enlighten me?  I don't know why the history/current status of his ethnicity, and his alcohol abuse should temper a criminal sentence. 

I can't speak to specifics in this case, but recently here in St. John's, a drunk aboriginal man randomly stabbed a young girl in the chest while she was walking to work.  His lawyer made similar statements about how the judge must consider his ethnicity and problems with alcohol.  What does the history of his people have to do with that?

I also don't know how much effect this consideration has.  If he was a sober white dude, would he get an extra week or an extra year?
 
I don't know how thorough of an explanation I can give because I'm not really qualified.  But from what I have read, the Criminal Code was amended in the 90s with section 718(2)(e) that was designed to afford more of a kind of 'restorative justice' to aboriginal offenders in order to better reflect historical aboriginal justice.  As I mentioned above, it is also there to help combat the over-representation of aboriginals in prisons.

Basically, when sentencing judges have to factor in the unique background and cultural factors that aboriginals face in Canada and which impact them.  The judge will then determine on the facts of the case/person if factors such as these are present, how much weight to give to them, and whether they should be mitigating factors in the sentence.

The court recently clarified this:

"To be clear, courts must take judicial notice of such matters as the history of colonialism, displacement and residential schools and how that history continues to translate into lower educational attainment, lower incomes, higher unemployment, higher rates of substance abuse and suicide and, of course, higher levels of incarceration for Aboriginal Peoples," Justice Louis LeBel wrote for the majority.

"Failing to take these circumstances into account would violate the fundamental principle of sentencing."

...

Those Criminal Code provisions are not a "race-based discount on sentencing," LeBel wrote.

They are a "remedial provision designed to ameliorate the serious problem of overrepresentation of Aboriginal People in Canadian prisons and to encourage sentencing judges to have recourse to a restorative approach to sentencing."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/story/2012/03/23/north-supreme-court-aboriginal.html

In terms of him being an alcoholic, well that factors into his decision-making process.  It doesn't absolve him of the crime, but it factors into the sentence that his decision-making processes were affected.

It's impossible for me to say what he would get if he were a 'sober, white dude.'  I imagine it would be a stiffer sentence.  If he were sober, then there would be no mitigating factor of having his decision-making affected.  The same sentencing principles still apply to everyone, aboriginals included, but the court now must also recognise that aboriginals in Canada face a decidedly different and more complicated past and present than other Canadians.  Having just done a report for school on the history of residential schools in Canada, and the fallout from that, I can certainly attest to this being true.  Aboriginals face many issues, both on and off-reserve, that studies have linked to past abuse - higher rates of suicide, alcohol and drug abuse, etc., are very real issues for them.

You asked what the history of aboriginals has to do with someone committing a crime today.  The past abuses and problems faced by aboriginals are certainly reflected in the present time.  Things that happened to previous generations will certainly filter through to the present generations.  It's not to say that all aboriginals face the same issues or have the same response to them, but I think the court is quite right to consider its potential impact upon an individual.

The whole point of the considerations for aboriginals is not to automatically reduce their sentences, but to try and work with the unique conditions of aboriginals sensitively, rather than continue to pack prisons with them.  This means that, in some cases, sentences other than prison time will be more appropriate to attempt to rehabilitate the individual.
 
I think it's pretty damn asinine to call driving drunk a mitigating factor.  If anything, it is an instigating factor.

The suicide/alcohol/drug abuse questions are certainly valid, but to hold it up on a racial/ethnic basis and not a circumstantial basis, well I just find that to be very difficult.  I might be incredibly biased from some of the stories my Dad used to come home with about court proceedings and some of the situations he was faced in with guns/knives directed at him during threats only to watch the individual get off under the Gladue court system (well it's predecessor to be exact). 

I think life history has to account for some things, but basing it entirely on a racial/ethnic background is kind of silly.  The Aboriginals weren't the only race that were mistreated, and while a lot needs to be done still to atone for these misdeeds, I really have a hard time seeing how this is going to solve it.

Especially when for the rest of the nation the criminal code was just made to be a whole lot more strict.
 
Wow. 

They are a "remedial provision designed to ameliorate the serious problem of overrepresentation of Aboriginal People in Canadian prisons and to encourage sentencing judges to have recourse to a restorative approach to sentencing."

Those Criminal Code provisions are not a "race-based discount on sentencing," LeBel wrote.

Umm...Yes it is.  It's exactly that.  If being an aboriginal is a pre-requisite, then it's at least partially race based.

It is bananas to suggest that lesser sentences for aboriginal criminals accomplishes anything restorative on its own.
 
Frank E said:
It is bananas to suggest that lesser sentences for aboriginal criminals accomplishes anything restorative on its own.

Which is probably why no one has suggested that it does.
 
It's not really a useless subject, but is anyone able to correct the "Resign" to a "Re-Sign" on the title of the Kulemin article on the main page?

Only because it bugs me.
 
Frank E said:
Wow. 

They are a "remedial provision designed to ameliorate the serious problem of overrepresentation of Aboriginal People in Canadian prisons and to encourage sentencing judges to have recourse to a restorative approach to sentencing."

Those Criminal Code provisions are not a "race-based discount on sentencing," LeBel wrote.

Umm...Yes it is.  It's exactly that.  If being an aboriginal is a pre-requisite, then it's at least partially race based.

It is bananas to suggest that lesser sentences for aboriginal criminals accomplishes anything restorative on its own.

As I understand it, that comment is a reflection that it is not a "race-based discount" in the sense that if you are of that race you are automatically discounted on your sentence.  As I tried to explain above, sentences are determined on the facts of each case, whether you're white or aboriginal or any other race.

In addition to this, if it is appropriate in the circumstances of that case, and if the background factors/systemic factors/unique factors of the situation of the aboriginal offender are such that there is a reasonable alternative to imprisonment, then the courts should endeavour to attempt to do this.

Who says lesser sentences accomplishes anything restorative on its own?  Google and read the reasons for sentencing given by the judge in this case, and read the conditions of the sentence.  There is mandated counselling, etc.  Restorative measures aimed to restore the person as a functioning member of society/their aboriginal tribe. 

There have been enough studies done that show that more imprisonment is counter-productive to decreasing recidivism and decreasing prison numbers.  If it is possible and reasonable in the circumstances, avoiding prison time and mandating conditions and therapy is most certainly restorative.

It is a viewpoint that aboriginals make up a disproportionate number in the prison system, and instead of continuing to blindly throw $$ away at simply locking them up, it is for the benefit of everyone to attempt to restore them as positive members of society, and hopefully go some way towards reducing the future numbers of aboriginal offenders.

EDIT: Actually since I keep referring to them, here are the reasons for judgment: http://www.scribd.com/doc/101253301/Reasons-for-Sentence-Benjamin-Montgomery-Robinson
 
L K said:
I think it's pretty damn asinine to call driving drunk a mitigating factor.  If anything, it is an instigating factor.

Nobody called driving drunk a mitigating factor.  In fact, it is irrelevant to his conviction of obstructing justice.  He didn't obstruct justice until after.

The fact he was an alcoholic and seeking treatment for alcoholism, which was prevalent in his family history, was a mitigating factor in his sentence for obstruction of justice.  The judge specifically said that "the continuation of his treatment goals is important for his rehabilitation personally and societally."  Case precedents have shown that conditional sentences are appropriate when involving rehabilitation for alcoholism.

L K said:
The suicide/alcohol/drug abuse questions are certainly valid, but to hold it up on a racial/ethnic basis and not a circumstantial basis, well I just find that to be very difficult.  I might be incredibly biased from some of the stories my Dad used to come home with about court proceedings and some of the situations he was faced in with guns/knives directed at him during threats only to watch the individual get off under the Gladue court system (well it's predecessor to be exact). 

I think life history has to account for some things, but basing it entirely on a racial/ethnic background is kind of silly.  The Aboriginals weren't the only race that were mistreated, and while a lot needs to be done still to atone for these misdeeds, I really have a hard time seeing how this is going to solve it.

Especially when for the rest of the nation the criminal code was just made to be a whole lot more strict.

Here's the full text of a quote I posted above (but didn't see the full thing at 2 AM last night):

?To be clear, courts must take judicial notice of such matters as the history of colonialism, displacement, and residential schools and how that history continues to translate into lower educational attainment, lower incomes, higher unemployment, higher rates of substance abuse and suicide, and of course higher levels of incarceration for Aboriginal peoples. These matters, on their own, do not necessarily justify a different sentence for Aboriginal offenders. Rather, they provide the necessary context for understanding and evaluating the case-specific information presented by counsel.

...

To the extent that the application of the Gladue principles lead to different sanctions for aboriginal offenders, those sanctions will be justified based on their unique circumstances ? circumstances which are rationally related to the sentencing process.?


If you have a specific group within Canada that has the history of "colonialism, displacement, and residential schools...lower educational attainment, lower incomes, higher unemployment, higher rates of substance abuse and suicide, and ... higher levels of incarceration" I don't see how it is unreasonable for a judge to take these factors into account in sentencing the individual to imprisonment or something else.  Whether we want to admit it or not, these are factors unique to aboriginals.  This doesn't mean there aren't people of other races within Canada who have had an awful life, an awful background, or an awful shot compared to the majority. 

A judge is still going to take the background of an offender into account.  The provision in the Criminal Code says that a judge should consider all reasonable alternatives to imprisonment for all offenders, not just aboriginal offenders.  The addition to the provision is that they do this with "particular attention" to aboriginals.

It is an acknowledgement of the discrimination aboriginals have faced in Canada that impacts upon their over-representation in the justice system.  Health Canada itself said in a 2004 report that aboriginal "communities are disproportionately affected by many social, economic and behavioural factors such as high rates of poverty, substance abuse, sexually transmitted infections and limited access to or use of health care services.?

They are disproportionately affected.  That means their situation is unique to other social and racial groups within Canada.  They have faced decades of discrimination and forced removal from their homes at the hands of, for lack of a better way to put it, white people.  It's really too deep of a subject to go too in-depth into here (although you can google plenty of articles/books/studies on the lasting impact and legacy of residential schools on future generations of aboriginals).

After an extensive history of discrimination and subjugation, I certainly have no problem with attempting to import some measure of traditional aboriginal "healing" restorative justice into sentencing principles for aboriginal offenders.  It's not perfect, but it's an extremely sensitive and complicated area, and to be blunt about it, their experiences are not something I can project my mind to imagine.  Even after spending the majority of my adolescence attending a school that was 50/50 aboriginal/non-aboriginal, and seeing first hand the gap that exists.
 
Potvin29 said:
As I understand it, that comment is a reflection that it is not a "race-based discount" in the sense that if you are of that race you are automatically discounted on your sentence.  As I tried to explain above, sentences are determined on the facts of each case, whether you're white or aboriginal or any other race.

That's not how I read it.  It is specifically speaking to the challenges of aboriginals, and their numbers in prisons, and then suggesting different sentences because of this. 

From the sentencing report (thank you for that link):

"Imprisonment is to be considered a last resort, especially when protective custody could be expected and Robinson is an aboriginal offender."

After some thought, I don't have a problem with a kind of restorative justice that takes my history into account when deciding my sentence.  I just don't think it should have anything to do with race.  That the courts mandate treatments and counselling/mentoring during or after my prison sentence based on my particular needs and tendencies is probably appropriate. 

Potvin29 said:
In addition to this, if it is appropriate in the circumstances of that case, and if the background factors/systemic factors/unique factors of the situation of the aboriginal offender are such that there is a reasonable alternative to imprisonment, then the courts should endeavour to attempt to do this.

I don't agree with this based on my comments above.  I'm arguing that you really shouldn't take being an aboriginal into account at all.

Potvin29 said:
Who says lesser sentences accomplishes anything restorative on its own?  Google and read the reasons for sentencing given by the judge in this case, and read the conditions of the sentence.  There is mandated counselling, etc.  Restorative measures aimed to restore the person as a functioning member of society/their aboriginal tribe.

Fair enough.  I do think that the sentence was pretty light, but that's really beside the point.

Potvin29 said:
There have been enough studies done that show that more imprisonment is counter-productive to decreasing recidivism and decreasing prison numbers.  If it is possible and reasonable in the circumstances, avoiding prison time and mandating conditions and therapy is most certainly restorative.

That may be the case in certain circumstances, but doesn't that need to be balanced with the desires of the victims and society?

To be honest, I'm not really looking at arguing how much prison vs. how much counselling is appropriate in particular circumstances.

Potvin29 said:
It is a viewpoint that aboriginals make up a disproportionate number in the prison system, and instead of continuing to blindly throw $$ away at simply locking them up, it is for the benefit of everyone to attempt to restore them as positive members of society, and hopefully go some way towards reducing the future numbers of aboriginal offenders.

I would prefer that we administer justice that balances the victims' rights, punishments, deterrents, and restorative measures.

 
Finally got to Wonderland early enough to consider waiting for Leviathan and well, it certainly didn't suck * picking bugs out of my teeth *
 
I decided not to go on Leviathan after entering the park.
The screams were to much. You park the car look up, and it's sheer panic.

I passed on that one.
 
Frank E said:
That's not how I read it.  It is specifically speaking to the challenges of aboriginals, and their numbers in prisons, and then suggesting different sentences because of this. 

From the sentencing report (thank you for that link):

"Imprisonment is to be considered a last resort, especially when protective custody could be expected and Robinson is an aboriginal offender."

That may be the case in certain circumstances, but doesn't that need to be balanced with the desires of the victims and society?

...

I would prefer that we administer justice that balances the victims' rights, punishments, deterrents, and restorative measures.


It is balanced.  That is the whole purpose of the sentencing hearing and sentencing principles.  From the Criminal Code:

718. The fundamental purpose of sentencing is to contribute, along with crime prevention initiatives, to respect for the law and the maintenance of a just, peaceful and safe society by imposing just sanctions that have one or more of the following objectives:

    (a) to denounce unlawful conduct;

    (b) to deter the offender and other persons from committing offences;

    (c) to separate offenders from society, where necessary;

    (d) to assist in rehabilitating offenders;

    (e) to provide reparations for harm done to victims or to the community; and

    (f) to promote a sense of responsibility in offenders, and acknowledgment of the harm done to victims and to the community.

These sentencing principles are there to ensure the over-arching goal of a fit and proper sentence for the individual.  Sentences have always been individualized.  Just because a court is required to take into account the background and history of aboriginal offender's does not equal ignoring the victim or deterrence.  These will ALL be brought up in the sentencing hearing.  The sentence will be individualized based on a multitude of criteria, aboriginal heritage being only one aspect of that.

As I've alluded to previously, from s718.2:

(d) an offender should not be deprived of liberty, if less restrictive sanctions may be appropriate in the circumstances; and

(e) all available sanctions other than imprisonment that are reasonable in the circumstances should be considered for all offenders, with particular attention to the circumstances of aboriginal offenders.

These apply to ALL offenders, aboriginal or not.  If there are appropriate alternative sentences for white offenders than jail time, they will get it.  In the sentencing hearing, the court will hear any relevant background information on the white offender to mitigate their sentence. 

The court is simply required to now ensure that, in cases of aboriginal offenders, they consider the unique history of aboriginals in this country and the unique impacts upon aboriginal society that this history has wrought.

This isn't "you're this race, you get a discount! you get a discount!" as if it were some Oprah-themed judicial talk show.  This isn't arbitrarily choosing a race to bestow some advantage upon.  If anything, it is a recognition of  failed past and an attempt for a better future for everyone.  This inevitably impacts upon all society if the socio-economic conditions facing aboriginals in this country aren't ameliorated. 

The Manitoba Court of Appeal stated in R v Vermette in 2001:

The section does not mandate better treatment for aboriginal offenders than non-aboriginal offenders. It is simply a recognition that the sentence must be individualized and that there are serious social problems with respect to aboriginals that require more creative and innovative solutions. This is not reverse discrimination. It is an acknowledgement that to achieve real equity, sometimes different people must be treated differently.

If you want to simply look at it as "race = discount" then I think that is completely missing the point.  The way you are seeing it to me feels like you are viewing the fact they are aboriginal as (1) resulting in a lesser sentence for being that race; and (2) that anything less than imprisonment is a lesser sentence, and therefore less than adequate in terms of justice.

In the 2012 Supreme Court of Canada case of R v Ipeelee, the court stated:

The methodology set out by this Court in Gladue is designed to focus on those unique circumstances of an Aboriginal offender which could reasonably and justifiably impact on the sentence imposed. Gladue directs sentencing judges to consider: (1) the unique systemic and background factors which may have played a part in bringing the particular Aboriginal offender before the courts; and (2) the types of sentencing procedures and sanctions which may be appropriate in the circumstances for the offender because of his or her particular Aboriginal heritage or connection. Both sets of circumstances bear on the ultimate question of what is a fit and proper sentence.

The court went on to describe how Canadian criminal law is based upon the foundation that criminal liability only flows from voluntary conduct.  From Ipeelee:

Many Aboriginal offenders find themselves in situations of social and economic deprivation with a lack of opportunities and limited options for positive development. While this rarely ? if ever ? attains a level where one could properly say that their actions were not voluntary and therefore not deserving of criminal sanction, the reality is that their constrained circumstances may diminish their moral culpability. As Greckol J. of the Alberta Court of Queen?s Bench stated, at para. 60 of R. v. Skani, 2002 ABQB 1097, 331 A.R. 50, after describing the background factors that lead to Mr. Skani coming before the court, ?[f]ew mortals could withstand such a childhood and youth without becoming seriously troubled.? Failing to take these circumstances into account would violate the fundamental principle of sentencing ? that the sentence must be proportionate to the gravity of the offence and the degree of responsibility of the offender. The existence of such circumstances may also indicate that a sanction that takes account of the underlying causes of the criminal conduct may be more appropriate than one only aimed at punishment per se.

?

As Cory and Iacobucci JJ. state in Gladue, at para. 69:
In cases where such factors have played a significant role, it is incumbent upon the sentencing judge to consider these factors in evaluating whether imprisonment would actually serve to deter, or to denounce crime in a sense that would be meaningful to the community of which the offender is a member. In many instances, more restorative sentencing principles will gain primary relevance precisely because the prevention of crime as well as individual and social healing cannot occur through other means.

I think we need to get away from viewing alternative sentencing methods (which exist for all offenders anyways) as working to lessen their guilt or punishment in some way.  It is simply a reflection of the justice system evolving to treat offenders in a way that benefits society as a whole and attempts to reduce recidivism.

And one final quote from Ipeelee:

Section 718.2(e) does not create a race-based discount on sentencing. The provision does not ask courts to remedy the overrepresentation of Aboriginal people in prisons by artificially reducing incarceration rates. Rather, sentencing judges are required to pay particular attention to the circumstances of Aboriginal offenders in order to endeavour to achieve a truly fit and proper sentence in any particular case. This has, and continues to be, the fundamental duty of a sentencing judge. Gladue is entirely consistent with the requirement that sentencing judges engage in an individualized assessment of all of the relevant factors and circumstances, including the status and life experiences, of the person standing before them. Gladue affirms this requirement and recognizes that, up to this point, Canadian courts have failed to take into account the unique circumstances of Aboriginal offenders that bear on the sentencing process. Section 718.2(e) is intended to remedy this failure by directing judges to craft sentences in a manner that is meaningful to Aboriginal peoples. Neglecting this duty would not be faithful to the core requirement of the sentencing process.

This is as much as I can really contribute on the matter.  I won't be taking my course on Canadian criminal law until next term, and to go any further in an analysis of the law would entail entirely too much time (exams in a week and a half).

Hopefully it's at least provided some deeper understanding of the law and the justificiation behind it.

R v Ipeelee decision: http://scc.lexum.org/en/2012/2012scc13/2012scc13.html
 
Going into the city (Toronto) tomorrow night...anyone got any suggestions for a restaurant near Jarvis and Bloor?
 
Frank E said:
Going into the city (Toronto) tomorrow night...anyone got any suggestions for a restaurant near Jarvis and Bloor?

The Keg Mansion is close by, and is always a favourite.
 
Frank E said:
Going into the city (Toronto) tomorrow night...anyone got any suggestions for a restaurant near Jarvis and Bloor?

I guess it depends on what you mean by near and what you're looking for but you'd be a 5-10 minute drive away from the Danforth where I'd recommend Avli or Pantheon if you're a fan of greek food(although that comes from a non-greek so I can't speak to their authenticity).
 

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