Wade Belak found dead
- Thread starter Scot4bz
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Kin
Active member
cw said:
Not that I disagree, because I too would like a lot more information before I make any definitive statements here, but I think that what some people in the media recognize is that we're pretty close to being as informed as we're going to be about what happened this summer and if opinions are going to be formed/shared now is probably going to be as good a time as any.
Realistically, we're never going to know why Rick Rypien killed himself. Likewise, we'll probably never be entirely sure about the circumstances about Belak or Boogard's death. Being as all three deaths are/were being treated as non-suspicious we're only going to get as much information as the families want to reveal.
But even then, we're never really going to know why these guys did what they did. We're not going to know, if they did suffer from depression, if their depression was definitely linked to any concussions they may have sustained or if it was something they'd have dealt with in any line of work.
I mean, yeah, they can look at the nature of what these guys do and try to find out about the toll it takes on them mentally and physically but we're never going to have a smoking gun here.
So if someone comes along and says that these deaths are proof positive that fighting is bad, I'd agree that was ignorant and probably a case of someone using these deaths to further an agenda they'd formed before them. If, however, someone were to come along and say that these deaths very well may the best examples we have of the danger of concussions and reasons why the NHL needs to start erring on the side of caution I'd have a tougher time arguing with that.
Peter D.
Moderator
Saint Nik said:
Your last statement is quite bang on. Some have applauded Domi for what he said, but I was actually annoyed by it and even found it quite naive.
When I head/read that Belak could not sleep the night before games, and watch on TV former enforcers like Larasque and Brant Myhres discuss that they too would have difficulty sleeping and would shake/sweat in fear, I don't think it's totally far off to suggest that those enforcers who suffer(ed) from depression weren't affected by their role. And that doesn't even take into account the physical abuse on their head that is caused.
Players who have suffered from concussions have been said to possibly slip into depression. Again, it would not shock me at all if the role of an enforcer does as well.
maplesyrup
New member
Concussions (as I understand it) is as big (if not a bigger) of a problem in the NFL. If one wants to draw the link between concussions, depression, and suicide and given that there are far more NFL players than NHL players, shouldn't there be more (a lot more) of these occurrences with NFL players? Just curious.
Kin
Active member
Floyd said:
I think you maybe just haven't been keeping up on the issues the NFL is actually dealing with. Here's a NYT article on the subject
NFL and Concussions
And here's an excerpt:
So should the NFL have more than that? I don't know. I think that's a pretty remarkable figure as is.
maplesyrup
New member
Saint Nik said:
Sure. But that's just recognizing the link between concussion and depression. A link which looks to be a real one but what about the third part of that link - suicide? What makes the rate much less in the NFL? Or is it?
Kin
Active member
Floyd said:
I'm not sure the NFL or any Athlete-focused study is going to be spending a lot of time establishing a link between depression and suicide as that's an issue that can be left to the mental health field as a whole.
But I'm not entirely sure as to your point. Are you asking that if there's really a link between depression and suicides that the NFL should see more suicides?
I think that's kind of a misunderstanding of what the issue is here. I don't think anyone thinks that what the NHL has seen over the summer is by any means typical or representative of what to expect when dealing with a significant number of people with depression. I think this is just a couple(and really at this case Rypien is the only one who people seem to be definite about it being a suicide) cases at the same time driving the point home.
maplesyrup
New member
Saint Nik said:
I was. No, I understand the key link here is concussion - depression I was just curious about the other.
Kin
Active member
Floyd said:
Like I said, I think that only holds true if you think that what's happened in the last little while is indicative of what's to come instead of an unusual grouping of similar incidents. I don't think even the most negative of folks expects the NHL to see suicides at this rate.
And, like I said, we're sure about one NHL suicide right now. The NFL has had two in recent years. So it still holds true in that respect.
Floyd said:
Domi fought 278? times in the NHL for roughly 1-2 minutes rounds. (NHL fights are short relative to boxing). If each bout was 90 secs, call it 417 minutes of fighting in the pros.
Sugar Ray Leonard fought 40 pro fights and 150 times an as amateur averaging 7.6 x 3 minute rounds per pro fight. Roughly 900 minutes of fighting at the pro level.
Hockey fights often end rather quickly with fatigue between the two or the refs stepping in. Pro boxing fights end many times with one of the two knocked out and the winner often fairly punished.
I think boxers and football players take more punishment in terms of concussions.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1083048/pdf/jnnpsyc00046-0084.pdf
The number of fights, not the proficiency of the boxer, may be the critical factor. Since none of the boxers had been knocked out more than two times in their careers, a cumulative effect of multiple subconcussive head blows is the most likely culprit.
If concussions and depression have a relationship, as I suspect they do, my guess would be that boxing and football have a bigger problem. I'd like to see that looked at (in terms of getting a better handle on the unknown) before jumping off a cliff with hockey because of it. Having said that, I'm not saying worse sports for concussions let hockey off the hook either.
I see things like Bob Probert mentioned as evidence. Bob had a substance abuse problem - no doubt. But his father died of a heart attack at age 41 and we know heart disease can be passed on to generations. So again, Bob as an example of an enforcer who died young because he was an enforcer is a suspect conclusion. He may or may not have had a short biological clock that might have been a much bigger factor in his demise by heart attack. But not all the media opinions give that any consideration.
For all the talk about suicide, of the three enforcers, only one has been declared by authorities to have died by suicide - Rypien. Belak may have got carried away polishing his bishop. So even that is murky.
On the other side of the coin, if Bob Probert hadn't made it in hockey, does he OD from cocaine or drink himself to death a decade sooner without the NHL substance abuse program? Does Tie Domi join the mob as a loan collector? ;D Does Wade Belak get squished by a forklift as a factory worker?
I'm looking for some overall perspective. As I've said, I'm not a giant fan of fighting in the game. I could easily live without it. But in the NHLPA survey months ago, it was a major landslide by the players to keep it (80-90%?). I'd like some objectivity and more facts rather than an emotional media article that draws flawed conclusions on merely three different events. If the FDA approved drug trials on that basis, a lot of us would be dead.
I've seen this a few times in the media since the funeral:
http://www.stthomastimesjournal.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3286897
Secondly, friends and family wanted to point out that Belak's death has never officially been ruled a suicide by Toronto Police or medical officials, despite the fact that his passing has been commonly described as such by media outlets and in public.
For as much as there has been a lot of talk in the media about depression in Belak's case, it may well not have been what led directly to his demise - apparently according to family and friends at the funeral.
To me, the calls for ending fighting in hockey are equally flawed when it comes to considering the accurate facts and reasonable conclusions on those facts (because many facts are not known yet).
http://www.stthomastimesjournal.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3286897
Secondly, friends and family wanted to point out that Belak's death has never officially been ruled a suicide by Toronto Police or medical officials, despite the fact that his passing has been commonly described as such by media outlets and in public.
For as much as there has been a lot of talk in the media about depression in Belak's case, it may well not have been what led directly to his demise - apparently according to family and friends at the funeral.
To me, the calls for ending fighting in hockey are equally flawed when it comes to considering the accurate facts and reasonable conclusions on those facts (because many facts are not known yet).
maplesyrup
New member
cw said:
Never heard that one before
Kin
Active member
cw said:
Boxers also wear padded gloves, are examined after every round and don't fight on skates over ice.
I don't think anyone would argue that a NHL player is taking the same risk that a boxer is in terms of getting into a fight. That said, at least Boxing(and a more poorly run sport you'd be hard pressed to find) does it's best to treat fights both as they're happening and afterwards as serious events where health concerns are very, very important.
I think that's what my problem has come to be with fighting in hockey. It's not that it exists, it's that it exists and the league doesn't take it all that seriously. Players throw bare knuckles at each other, get examined by nobody and are back playing a contact sport in minutes.
I'm fine with fighting in hockey the same way I'm fine with Boxing and MMA as spectator sports. Those sports, however, take fighting pretty seriously and don't deal with them with "attaboys" and pats on the back.
cw said:
Like I said, I think holding out for more information at this point, at least in regards to these three deaths is probably a mugs game. If I remember right, as soon as Belak's death was found to be "non-suspicious" they stopped releasing details to the media as per policy. So you and I are probably never going to know the causes of Wade Belak's death.
And, either way, we're never going to have answers in a straight line here. Nothing will ever tell us that Wade Belak definitely had concussions that definitely led to depression that definitely led to his suicide, even if all three of those things are true on their own. If we're going to wait for hard evidence like that we'll be waiting forever.
We know hockey leads to concussions and evidence is pretty strong that concussions lead to depression. I think that these deaths(Rypien and Belak anyways, Boogard seems to be more about the larger issues re: concussions) have put that under a pretty harsh spotlight.
Like you, I'd be reluctant to say they're proof positive that fighting needs to be done away with. I have much less of a problem saying that they're great cautionary reasons as to why the NHL needs to seriously look at the role fighting plays in the game and make some fundamental changes to the way fights are handled. That said, I'd think that was true absent these deaths.
Saint Nik said:
I think Belak himself said he didn't think he ever had a concussion, fwiw. I think it's a stretch to infer he was depressed due to his role ( not that you're doing that ) 'Sleepless nights' are something I've seen pointed to but so what, plenty of people have sleepless nights over plenty of issues that aren't negative.
If the family is saying his death wasn't a suicide and the police can't confirm then there's going to be a lot of room for speculation, pretty needless speculation from my perch, however, is it weird that I feel a little more square with the universe if Wade died a mis-adventurer's death?
Britishbulldog
Active member
cw said:
That was candid. Great interview by Wade.
hockeyfan1
New member
Britishbulldog said:
"I hope it doesn't happen anytime soon..."
That quotation by Belak, in reference to the Boston University
study on the impact of athletes in contact sports , concerning
CTE, in response to a quote by the writer, come to think of it,
sounded 'eerie'.
Was Wade apprehensive subconsciously, somehow, about his state of (brain) health? Sounds like.