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WCF: Vegas Golden Knights vs. Colorado Avalanche

What seemed to bother him wasn't so much the stuff on the ice. Obviously, nobody likes losing. But what really bothered him was trashing his cottage and house. Having to hire security and have police around to protect his family. Fans went too far. And management didn't get his back. Pierre McGuire feels they ran him out of town.

Tortorella isn't the first coach to talk about how confident Marner is in his abilities. Tortorella reciprocated as Marner got 1.5 mins more/game against the Avs than any other forward. Coach Cooper who had him for the 2017 World Championships, Four Nations & 2026 Olympics rewarded Marner with a bunch of ice time. He led team Canada in scoring for the Hlinka-Gretzky Gold and the U20 (didn't medal). He led London Knights in two playoff seasons. He put up the 2nd highest amount of points in Memorial Cup history. He led the Leafs in playoff scoring and +/-. He's doing the same in Vegas. He's confident because he has produced everywhere he's gone. His coaches are confident because they continue to give him a bunch of ice time - more than most forwards.

He's probably living in a secure gated community in Vegas so his family won't have to worry about that crap any more.
How does this have anything to do with underperforming as an individual and as a team in the playoffs for 9yrs? What an absolutely retconned narrative. That may have been the final nail in the coffin but the monsters in their heads quote by Paul MacLean was very real and I wouldn't be surprised if that was pointed toward Marner more than anyone else.

I hate to say he cared too much but he kinda did. And to a large extent the players did that to themselves. If they go to the conference finals even once we're probably not having this conversation. Now he's free from all that in a market that couldn't care less.
 
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Is everyone ignoring Carter Hart's .924? If he played anywhere like he did during the season this team is out already.

Also kinda funny that everyone is acting like Marner was a bad player or that it isn't a team sport. If Matthews leaves would anyone be surprised if he led the playoffs in goals? The collection of guys didn't work for us. It's like acting like your ex girlfriend was the worst person in the world. Doesn't mean it can't work with someone else but it didn't work for you. Both things can be true.
It's pretty ridiculous how both ends of the spectrum have gone nuts.
- every time Marner takes a shift now its "Marner takes a shift 3 seconds further in the playoffs than the Leafs ever got...Toronto was the problem"
- the other side are obsessively posting about how this proves that Marner couldn't handle the pressure.

It's both. Anyone watching Marner over the last 10 years has seen stretches of his play look great in the playoffs. They have also seen his game quiet off as series get deeper. Marner is playing better than he ever did in Toronto. Some of that is the monkey off his back. Some of that is less media/social attention. Some of it is better team depth (especially on the blue line for getting the puck moving).

But it's also absurd to write everything off as Toronto being the issue. Some of the off the ice issues stuff, I'm sure it affects how you think but it doesn't explain the shrinking performance late in series (and that's not just Mitch who did that).
 
What seemed to bother him wasn't so much the stuff on the ice. Obviously, nobody likes losing. But what really bothered him was trashing his cottage and house. Having to hire security and have police around to protect his family. Fans went too far. And management didn't get his back. Pierre McGuire feels they ran him out of town.

So here's the thing that always kinda bothered me about this - I've been a leafs fan for a long time and until this, I have never heard of any player getting harrased or having their homes invaded by anyone.

Yeah fans here can be harsh in the stadium and in call in shows and now social media, or even maybe he'll at them in the streets. But what player has ever had these kinds of incidents happen to them? By and large Toronto fans are pretty respectful of players privacy. For example, I was at a restaurant a few years ago and it was packed - Matthews was there with a group - not a single person approached him throughout the whole time I was there. It's just one example but I think this is more the norm than exception.

This does not track with how fans in Toronto generally behave. I've always looked at these incidents with a bit of side eye. I actually can't find any credible news outlet that has reported that marner's cottage was trashed. Just some random Facebook posts.

And the carjacking, while terrible, was not the result of leafs fans trying to run him out of town. It was thugs trying to steal an expensive car, which has happened to many non Leafs players in the gta unfortunately.

So I'm not going with the evil Toronto fans drove him out of town. I truly believe that Marner just didn't want to be here. Which is entirely his right. The only thing I fault him for is not being honest with management about his intentions.

(And CW I'm not asking you these specific questions - just putting this out there)
 
I definitely have time for Marner trade ideas, even though I'm pretty sure we lose the trade up front. If he goes a contender with less off-ice drama-llamas, he automatically does better there and the media here will fling poop at the Leafs for shipping off their hometown franchise player. If Marner stays here, they fling their poop at him directly, which he will ignore, but his buddies and dad will be sure to notify him of it all, and he is basically the worst version of himself.

So the thing I got wrong in this 2023 Armchair GM comment was that he went to a contender with A LOT of off-ice drama-llamas (that he was shopping around for while insisting on finishing his Toronto deal).

It was impossible for him to win anything here, so too bad for the Leafs on that front. Losing him for essentially a late 1st (via Nic Roy) is a tremendous asset value drop, but 12+M in cap and 1st overall makes up for that a bit and maybe extends the Leafs window past the Floridians, who are starting to finally slip.

Big difference for Marner in Vegas is he and his camp are not trying to one-up and strong arm everyone into some weird franchise-saviour accolades. I knew his skillset was capable, but his headspace couldn't get out of his way while he was in Toronto and it polluted more than just his own play.
 
Looking at the stats it does look like the AVS did a good job containing Marner, he only had 3 points no goals 5 vs 5 and no power play points at all, make of that what you will.
 
So here's the thing that always kinda bothered me about this - I've been a leafs fan for a long time and until this, I have never heard of any player getting harrased or having their homes invaded by anyone.

Yeah fans here can be harsh in the stadium and in call in shows and now social media, or even maybe he'll at them in the streets. But what player has ever had these kinds of incidents happen to them? By and large Toronto fans are pretty respectful of players privacy. For example, I was at a restaurant a few years ago and it was packed - Matthews was there with a group - not a single person approached him throughout the whole time I was there. It's just one example but I think this is more the norm than exception.

This does not track with how fans in Toronto generally behave. I've always looked at these incidents with a bit of side eye. I actually can't find any credible news outlet that has reported that marner's cottage was trashed. Just some random Facebook posts.

And the carjacking, while terrible, was not the result of leafs fans trying to run him out of town. It was thugs trying to steal an expensive car, which has happened to many non Leafs players in the gta unfortunately.

So I'm not going with the evil Toronto fans drove him out of town. I truly believe that Marner just didn't want to be here. Which is entirely his right. The only thing I fault him for is not being honest with management about his intentions.

(And CW I'm not asking you these specific questions - just putting this out there)
Even if those things happened, it's not 'evil Toronto fans' it's 3 or 4 complete assholes. I hate sharing the traits of 6 or 7 million people by association. Not that you're saying that. It's just an unfortunate narrative that irks me.
 
So here's the thing that always kinda bothered me about this - I've been a leafs fan for a long time and until this, I have never heard of any player getting harrased or having their homes invaded by anyone.

Yeah fans here can be harsh in the stadium and in call in shows and now social media, or even maybe he'll at them in the streets. But what player has ever had these kinds of incidents happen to them? By and large Toronto fans are pretty respectful of players privacy. For example, I was at a restaurant a few years ago and it was packed - Matthews was there with a group - not a single person approached him throughout the whole time I was there. It's just one example but I think this is more the norm than exception.

This does not track with how fans in Toronto generally behave. I've always looked at these incidents with a bit of side eye. I actually can't find any credible news outlet that has reported that marner's cottage was trashed. Just some random Facebook posts.

And the carjacking, while terrible, was not the result of leafs fans trying to run him out of town. It was thugs trying to steal an expensive car, which has happened to many non Leafs players in the gta unfortunately.

So I'm not going with the evil Toronto fans drove him out of town. I truly believe that Marner just didn't want to be here. Which is entirely his right. The only thing I fault him for is not being honest with management about his intentions.

(And CW I'm not asking you these specific questions - just putting this out there)
Marner did not say too much about it while he was here. But there were a number of separate reports of this stuff going on over a number of years. Those had nothing to do with the car jacking. I think it started at his cottage. And then they hit his home. Here's some links on the vandalism. Toronto media reported some of these events

Hockey News covered some of it

NY Times

Various talk radio discussed it - some claiming credible sources from the team.

But it is not just a Marner thing. Check this out:
Social media and sports betting is helping fuel it.

Stuart Skinner’s wife reveals her family has received death threats​


NHL, St. Louis police looking into threats made toward Avalanche's Kadri​


Maple Leafs Player Received Death Threats After Patrik Laine Hit​


Russian players are receiving death threats over Ukraine.

And they're seeing it in other sports like tennis, golf, soccer, women's sports too.

There's tons of it out there. This is not a Marner fantasy.
 
Death threats are not fantasy, and I don't want to minimize that, but I've received threats of extortion in my emails by bad actors and I'm just some guy. You spend enough time on twitter (which Marners camp definitely did) and you can easily get death threats too. Death threats are an unfortunate side effect of the world being over connected and that's just the way it is. The Leafs looked into these threats multiple times and from my recollection none of them were credible.

I seriously question why this is a Marner in Toronto only thing when there's been plenty of anger to go around with guys like Morgan Rielly who are fighting tooth and nail to stay or why Marner seems to be the only guy that other players say the fans and media were unfair to. This is obviously false, but other players don't let other players talk for them like he does. We did get a sniff of that with Matthews this year, but not nearly to the same extent as Marner. Letting it be is a lot better than making it seem you constantly think about it and have the narrative reoccur over and over. I don't want to minimize what are essentially isolated incidents but lumping this as "the fans" is so untrue and unfair.

I am so glad Mats is here to at least reset the culture of constant opposition to the fans that pay players salaries and subsidize the rest of the league to a large degree.
 
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How does this have anything to do with underperforming as an individual and as a team in the playoffs for 9yrs? What an absolutely retconned narrative. That may have been the final nail in the coffin but the monsters in their heads quote by Paul MacLean was very real and I wouldn't be surprised if that was pointed toward Marner more than anyone else.

I hate to say he cared too much but he kinda did. And to a large extent the players did that to themselves. If they go to the conference finals even once we're probably not having this conversation. Now he's free from all that in a market that couldn't care less.
I'm not sure how much it had to do with his on ice performance. But I doubt it was a big factor.
I think it was a big factor in deciding where he wanted to continue his career. He probably opted for a gated community around Vegas.

But the "underperformance" claim isn't that accurate or simple. How important are MacKinnon's points in games 5-7 in the Vegas series? The premise that games 1-4 are not important has been bluntly proven wrong in this series,

A little anecdote from before my time: Rocket Richard was known as a great goal scorer for the Habs. in '49-50, he outscored Gordie Howe by 8 goals. 43 goals in 70 games. Playoffs came and he "underperformed". The Rangers put a "shadow" on him - a Finnish Canadian named Pentti Lund who shut Richard down holding him to 1 goal and 1 assist and the Rangers won the series 4-1. Hockey history tells us Richard was a heck of a player but things could happen to cause 'underformance'

One that I witnessed was Bobby Hull. In '65-66, he scored record setting 54 goals in 65 games. 22 more goals than 2nd place Mahovlich and 19 more points than 2nd place Makita. He was on top of the hockey world. Detroit put Bugsy Watson, a dman, as Hull's shadow. Held him to 2 goals, 2 Assists - more than halving his goal and reducing his points production. Chicago lost to the Wings in 6 games.I guess Bobby 'underperformed' ...

Nathan MacKinnon, got banged up on a shot block but only put up 2 assists, -2 in four games against Vegas. I guess he too 'underperformed'. But at least his cherry picked stats in games 5-7 are unblemished.

Try to extend that reasoning to our Leafs.
Matthews and Marner are a heck of a pair.
Nylander & Tavares can score some but they tend to give up more than they get at even strength. So teams don't have to devote too much effort to them.
The Leafs 3rd and 4th lines tended to be weaker due to the cap imbalance.

Put the shadow/checking line (which may not be the 3rd line) on Matthews-Marner and the Leafs path to victory gets really tough.

Howe & Richard had deeper teams.

Now, we seem to have a new breed ot team in Vegas: a team that can role 3 or 4 lines who are all very good defensively - capable of collectively smothering a powerhouse like the Avs. Hard to just shadow Marner when they have two other lines that can hurt.
To me, Marner is performing fairly similar to how he always has. He's got more open ice because the other lines are keeping teams honest.
So what is a contending team going to do?
We may be rethinking the game this summer.
Marner is just doing what he's done since he was a kid.
 
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The Leafs paid 4 forwards off-the-charts money and couldn't afford to build around them... end of story.

It does bother me that Marner is still making the same money now as he did when the Leafs signed him 8 years ago.
 
So I'm not going with the evil Toronto fans drove him out of town. I truly believe that Marner just didn't want to be here. Which is entirely his right. The only thing I fault him for is not being honest with management about his intentions.

Yeah, I agree. He and Dubas came to the same conclusion at about the same time -- the team wasn't built right to succeed in the playoffs -- and I think Dubas was the only guy in the organization sensible enough to see how it was going to play out (a couple more seasons of futility during which Marner [and likely then Matthews, TBD] would hang around until he could handpick his next team).
 
I'm not sure how much it had to do with his on ice performance. But I doubt it was a big factor.
I think it was a big factor in deciding where he wanted to continue his career. He probably opted for a gated community around Vegas.
...
Mitch Marner "...lives in a master-planned community in Las Vegas", "... popular among NHL players". "He resides in a private, exclusive gated community that features 24-hour guard patrols, controlled entry, and layered security."
 

Totally normal behaviour. Not poisoning the relationship with the fans at all. It's all the fans fault.
The quote is from this piece
 
I'm not sure how much it had to do with his on ice performance. But I doubt it was a big factor.
I think it was a big factor in deciding where he wanted to continue his career. He probably opted for a gated community around Vegas.

But the "underperformance" claim isn't that accurate or simple. How important are MacKinnon's points in games 5-7 in the Vegas series? The premise that games 1-4 are not important has been bluntly proven wrong in this series,

A little anecdote from before my time: Rocket Richard was known as a great goal scorer for the Habs. in '49-50, he outscored Gordie Howe by 8 goals. 43 goals in 70 games. Playoffs came and he "underperformed". The Rangers put a "shadow" on him - a Finnish Canadian named Pentti Lund who shut Richard down holding him to 1 goal and 1 assist and the Rangers won the series 4-1. Hockey history tells us Richard was a heck of a player but things could happen to cause 'underformance'

One that I witnessed was Bobby Hull. In '65-66, he scored record setting 54 goals in 65 games. 22 more goals than 2nd place Mahovlich and 19 more points than 2nd place Makita. He was on top of the hockey world. Detroit put Bugsy Watson, a dman, as Hull's shadow. Held him to 2 goals, 2 Assists - more than halving his goal and reducing his points production. Chicago lost to the Wings in 6 games.I guess Bobby 'underperformed' ...

Nathan MacKinnon, got banged up on a shot block but only put up 2 assists, -2 in four games against Vegas. I guess he too 'underperformed'. But at least his cherry picked stats in games 5-7 are unblemished.

Try to extend that reasoning to our Leafs.
Matthews and Marner are a heck of a pair.
Nylander & Tavares can score some but they tend to give up more than they get at even strength. So teams don't have to devote too much effort to them.
The Leafs 3rd and 4th lines tended to be weaker due to the cap imbalance.

Put the shadow/checking line (which may not be the 3rd line) on Matthews-Marner and the Leafs path to victory gets really tough.

Howe & Richard had deeper teams.

Now, we seem to have a new breed ot team in Vegas: a team that can role 3 or 4 lines who are all very good defensively - capable of collectively smothering a powerhouse like the Avs. Hard to just shadow Marner when they have two other lines that can hurt.
To me, Marner is performing fairly similar to how he always has. He's got more open ice because the other lines are keeping teams honest.
So what is a contending team going to do?
We may be rethinking the game this summer.
Marner is just doing what he's done since he was a kid.
What are we even talking about here? The entire team essentially underperformed for 10yrs in the playoffs. If you want to exclude Marner, ok, but thats not how I see it. Is Marner over performing now or is his production now commensurate with being under a point per game for the Leafs in 9 playoff years? The same criticism is extended to the entire core 4. Obviously coaching and roster construction are not beyond criticism. I don't think your position could possibly be the core 4 performed as advertised, or that only Marner is beyond criticism, everything else was a problem.

MacKinnon is not free from criticism but I don't cheer for the Avs so I don't really care. And the interesting thing about MacKinnon and the Avs is they actually have won. You'd be crazy not to think that plays a factor. This is also the WCF and not round one.

And it's also easy to forget Vegas wouldn't have made the playoffs in the East and would have been bounced fairly early if they played like they did most of the year. How much of this is Torts being the right guy at the right time for the right players?
 
And it's also easy to forget Vegas wouldn't have made the playoffs in the East and would have been bounced fairly early if they played like they did most of the year. How much of this is Torts being the right guy at the right time for the right players?

2024-25 Vegas had the 3rd best pts win% in the league and the 3rd best GAA in the league.
They had some serious misfortune

They lost their #1 stud dman Pietrangelo with career ending injury.
Adin Hill, their #1 Cup wining goalie suffered a lengthy groin injury in October - he still has not completely recovered from
They got Carter Hart but he got hurt for months so their goaltending plummeted (big reason for their fall off)
#2 center Karlsson just returned from a 6 month injury
Karlsson's injury loss forced Marner to play center (they lost Roy in Marner trade) so Karlsson's return helped spring Marner to his natural position
They added Rasmus Andersson at the deadline to help bolster their top 4's loss of Pietrangelo
They added Tortorella with ~8 games to go in the reg season.

So Pietrangelo permanent loss to injury, Hill/Hart losses to injury, Karlsson lost to injury got flipped with
Addition of Rasmus Andersson, addition & return to health of Carter Hart, return to health of Karlsson - moving Marner to his natural position and adding Tortorella
All that brought them back to being one of the best teams in the league - like they were last season.
I'd say their GM deserves a bunch of credit for putting that together
Coach and players deserve bunches of credit too.
Even if they don't win a Cup, upsetting the Avs and the way they did it was special.
 
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