What Now?

[bustaheims]

Yeah, between front office turnover and just the reality that most guys are going to make personal decisions come free agent time(especially $ based) it seems unlikely to be a real factor in attracting guys to the team in any meaningful lasting sense. A much more realistic concern would be about what it might do to the dynamic with the guys you've already got if you're not great to a buddy of theirs.

And, even then, it seems to fade away pretty quickly. Players are ultimately motivated by 3 things when it comes to new contracts - money, a chance to win, and being able to play close to their family. Everything else falls much lower down on the ladder.

 

[Kin]

And, even then, it seems to fade away pretty quickly. Players are ultimately motivated by 3 things when it comes to new contracts - money, a chance to win, and being able to play close to their family. Everything else falls much lower down on the ladder.

Sure but you don't always want to be in a position where in order to sign someone you're offering them the most money possible or the best possible chance to win.

 

[Bill_Berg]

If Dubas did what's suggested. Trade Rielly and waive five guys at this point in the season, it would both mess the team up socially for the rest of the year (and on the ice) and make others think twice about signing here while Dubas is the GM. But what a story it would be! Trump-level crazy!

 

[bustaheims]

And, even then, it seems to fade away pretty quickly. Players are ultimately motivated by 3 things when it comes to new contracts - money, a chance to win, and being able to play close to their family. Everything else falls much lower down on the ladder.

Sure but you don't always want to be in a position where in order to sign someone you're offering them the most money possible or the best possible chance to win.

That's fair. I just don't think the whole trying to get a player to waive a no trade/no move clause or moving them shortly before an extension kicks has much of an impact there, outside of some fairly extreme scenarios I don't know if we've ever seen play out - and we've seen teams do some crappy stuff to players.

 

[Bill_Berg]

And, even then, it seems to fade away pretty quickly. Players are ultimately motivated by 3 things when it comes to new contracts - money, a chance to win, and being able to play close to their family. Everything else falls much lower down on the ladder.

Sure but you don't always want to be in a position where in order to sign someone you're offering them the most money possible or the best possible chance to win.

That's fair. I just don't think the whole trying to get a player to waive a no trade/no move clause or moving them shortly before an extension kicks has much of an impact there, outside of some fairly extreme scenarios I don't know if we've ever seen play out - and we've seen teams do some crappy stuff to players.

If it was clearly to make the team better, I doubt it would have much impact at all.

 

[hobarth]

We can make demands while also being calm, the question is can we be calm if TO loses in the 1st round again this year after Dubie does nothing to significantly improve a roster that absolutely requires a massive infusion of talent and character.

I've lived thru the years since TO's last Cup, I don't know if I will be able to survive another rebuild that might give TO another truly competitive team. TO isn't truly competitive now but can be with some of the pieces already here.

Sometimes Dubie reminds me of supervisors, they can move pieces/employees around just to make it look like they're doing something while also carrying a clip board. Placing Hunt on Waivers, is good, but he should also place Jarnkrok, ZAR, Kerfoot, Kampf and Brodie on waivers, that could potentially clear 13 mil. in Cap space and then use any extra Cap dollars on players that can help instead of just treading water. Rielly should simply be traded because maybe some other team will see some value in him, his greatest value, I'm told, is on the PP, that's why TO was trying, going with 5 forwards and I don't doubt that Timmins could more than adequately replace him in every way.

Listen to what you're saying. I understand not liking the construction of the team but waiving a significant portion of the roster simply isn't an option.

Of course what I'm saying isn't possible but that doesn't mean it isn't needed. The alternative is watching history repeat itself.

I keep reading articles from the media about who TO should trade like Engval and Holl, I figure these are 2 of TO's true value players, they're not overpaid like Kampf, Jarnkrok and others I've mentioned, their contributions to the team dwarfs their compensation. I figure if Engval was promoted like Jarkrok his offensive stats would skyrocket but because he drives the 3rd line like no other bottom 6er, TO can't afford to elevate him.

I wonder what impact Kessel might have provided TO in the first 3 years of the Marner/Mathews years when those two were on ELCs, in the right scenario like he was placed in by the Penguins he might have been the added spark to enable TO to go much further in the playoffs or...

Nylander, Mitch, Matthews, JVR, Bozak, Kadri, Brown, Leo, Johnsson, Hyman, Kapanen and Kessel, wow, that's 4 lines that nobody could've matched, well, thank God TO removed Kessel for Marleau and gave away Phanny? Thank you Shanny!?

 

[Arn]

It's good to have other points of view I suppose.

 

[Guilt Trip]

It's good to have other points of view I suppose.

That's being nice

 

[hobarth]

Isn't it great, some people can be nice.

 

[spiderbob]

We can make demands while also being calm, the question is can we be calm if TO loses in the 1st round again this year after Dubie does nothing to significantly improve a roster that absolutely requires a massive infusion of talent and character.

I've lived thru the years since TO's last Cup, I don't know if I will be able to survive another rebuild that might give TO another truly competitive team. TO isn't truly competitive now but can be with some of the pieces already here.

Sometimes Dubie reminds me of supervisors, they can move pieces/employees around just to make it look like they're doing something while also carrying a clip board. Placing Hunt on Waivers, is good, but he should also place Jarnkrok, ZAR, Kerfoot, Kampf and Brodie on waivers, that could potentially clear 13 mil. in Cap space and then use any extra Cap dollars on players that can help instead of just treading water. Rielly should simply be traded because maybe some other team will see some value in him, his greatest value, I'm told, is on the PP, that's why TO was trying, going with 5 forwards and I don't doubt that Timmins could more than adequately replace him in every way.

Listen to what you're saying. I understand not liking the construction of the team but waiving a significant portion of the roster simply isn't an option.

Of course what I'm saying isn't possible but that doesn't mean it isn't needed. The alternative is watching history repeat itself.

I keep reading articles from the media about who TO should trade like Engval and Holl, I figure these are 2 of TO's true value players, they're not overpaid like Kampf, Jarnkrok and others I've mentioned, their contributions to the team dwarfs their compensation. I figure if Engval was promoted like Jarkrok his offensive stats would skyrocket but because he drives the 3rd line like no other bottom 6er, TO can't afford to elevate him.

I wonder what impact Kessel might have provided TO in the first 3 years of the Marner/Mathews years when those two were on ELCs, in the right scenario like he was placed in by the Penguins he might have been the added spark to enable TO to go much further in the playoffs or...

Nylander, Mitch, Matthews, JVR, Bozak, Kadri, Brown, Leo, Johnsson, Hyman, Kapanen and Kessel, wow, that's 4 lines that nobody could've matched, well, thank God TO removed Kessel for Marleau and gave away Phanny? Thank you Shanny!?

Any manager who routinely has his business finish in the top 5 of their industry is a damn good manager imo.

 

[rdowdall]

We can make demands while also being calm, the question is can we be calm if TO loses in the 1st round again this year after Dubie does nothing to significantly improve a roster that absolutely requires a massive infusion of talent and character.

I've lived thru the years since TO's last Cup, I don't know if I will be able to survive another rebuild that might give TO another truly competitive team. TO isn't truly competitive now but can be with some of the pieces already here.

Sometimes Dubie reminds me of supervisors, they can move pieces/employees around just to make it look like they're doing something while also carrying a clip board. Placing Hunt on Waivers, is good, but he should also place Jarnkrok, ZAR, Kerfoot, Kampf and Brodie on waivers, that could potentially clear 13 mil. in Cap space and then use any extra Cap dollars on players that can help instead of just treading water. Rielly should simply be traded because maybe some other team will see some value in him, his greatest value, I'm told, is on the PP, that's why TO was trying, going with 5 forwards and I don't doubt that Timmins could more than adequately replace him in every way.

Listen to what you're saying. I understand not liking the construction of the team but waiving a significant portion of the roster simply isn't an option.

Of course what I'm saying isn't possible but that doesn't mean it isn't needed. The alternative is watching history repeat itself.

I keep reading articles from the media about who TO should trade like Engval and Holl, I figure these are 2 of TO's true value players, they're not overpaid like Kampf, Jarnkrok and others I've mentioned, their contributions to the team dwarfs their compensation. I figure if Engval was promoted like Jarkrok his offensive stats would skyrocket but because he drives the 3rd line like no other bottom 6er, TO can't afford to elevate him.

I wonder what impact Kessel might have provided TO in the first 3 years of the Marner/Mathews years when those two were on ELCs, in the right scenario like he was placed in by the Penguins he might have been the added spark to enable TO to go much further in the playoffs or...

Nylander, Mitch, Matthews, JVR, Bozak, Kadri, Brown, Leo, Johnsson, Hyman, Kapanen and Kessel, wow, that's 4 lines that nobody could've matched, well, thank God TO removed Kessel for Marleau and gave away Phanny? Thank you Shanny!?

If the Leafs kept Kessel, chances are they don't get Matthews.  Also, I would say that I was more upset that they didn't move more of the roster.  JVR and Bozak could have been moved for more young assets that would have set the team up to be in a better situation today.  The idea that the Leafs needed to make the playoffs to "learn how to win" hasn't played out.  The Leafs learned how to make the playoffs and flame out in the first round rather than showing progress.

 

[Goaliedave31]

Not sure about the "flaming out". They lost last year in 7 games to the two time Cup winner in a game which featured the only time I have seen in 50 years that a goal was called back on a "pick". They've been more unlucky than anything, eg. - being in a division that features three of the best teams in the league,  two egregious giveaways in the Montreal series that led to winning goals, Kadri being suspended in two different years. The Columbus series was the only "flame out"- bad goaltending, lack of scoring.

 

[rdowdall]

Not sure about the "flaming out". They lost last year in 7 games to the two time Cup winner in a game which featured the only time I have seen in 50 years that a goal was called back on a "pick". They've been more unlucky than anything, eg. - being in a division that features three of the best teams in the league,  two egregious giveaways in the Montreal series that led to winning goals, Kadri being suspended in two different years. The Columbus series was the only "flame out"- bad goaltending, lack of scoring.

Perhaps the wrong choice of wording.  Pushing to make the playoffs that first season against the Caps hasn't created this battle hardened winning machine.  It's lead to a team that has gone to an elimination game in the first round of the playoffs for 5 straight years, and lost all 5. 

If the Leafs had made the decision to focus on stocking the cupboard some more and then trying to make the playoffs, the Leafs may be further along now with some sacrificing back then.

 

[Zee]

Not sure about the "flaming out". They lost last year in 7 games to the two time Cup winner in a game which featured the only time I have seen in 50 years that a goal was called back on a "pick". They've been more unlucky than anything, eg. - being in a division that features three of the best teams in the league,  two egregious giveaways in the Montreal series that led to winning goals, Kadri being suspended in two different years. The Columbus series was the only "flame out"- bad goaltending, lack of scoring.

Perhaps the wrong choice of wording.  Pushing to make the playoffs that first season against the Caps hasn't created this battle hardened winning machine.  It's lead to a team that has gone to an elimination game in the first round of the playoffs for 5 straight years, and lost all 5. 

If the Leafs had made the decision to focus on stocking the cupboard some more and then trying to make the playoffs, the Leafs may be further along now with some sacrificing back then.

I have to agree on this.  I know the fanbase was starved for playoffs, but coming off dead last in 2015-2016, there was no need to push for a playoff spot that first season with Matthews.  Instead of trading for Boyle, Leafs should have probably dumped some guys like JVR/Bozak for picks and continued to build the pipeline.  Had they still made the playoffs organically then great, but not at the expense of trading away futures so early in the rebuild.

 

[rdowdall]

Not sure about the "flaming out". They lost last year in 7 games to the two time Cup winner in a game which featured the only time I have seen in 50 years that a goal was called back on a "pick". They've been more unlucky than anything, eg. - being in a division that features three of the best teams in the league,  two egregious giveaways in the Montreal series that led to winning goals, Kadri being suspended in two different years. The Columbus series was the only "flame out"- bad goaltending, lack of scoring.

Perhaps the wrong choice of wording.  Pushing to make the playoffs that first season against the Caps hasn't created this battle hardened winning machine.  It's lead to a team that has gone to an elimination game in the first round of the playoffs for 5 straight years, and lost all 5. 

If the Leafs had made the decision to focus on stocking the cupboard some more and then trying to make the playoffs, the Leafs may be further along now with some sacrificing back then.

I have to agree on this.  I know the fanbase was starved for playoffs, but coming off dead last in 2015-2016, there was no need to push for a playoff spot that first season with Matthews.  Instead of trading for Boyle, Leafs should have probably dumped some guys like JVR/Bozak for picks and continued to build the pipeline.  Had they still made the playoffs organically then great, but not at the expense of trading away futures so early in the rebuild.

And if you go back further in that year, trading for Andersen.  That was another deal that set the tone for making the playoffs that season.

It reminds me of a point Nik made around the time Babcock was hired, where he pointed out, and I am paraphrasing here, that it is easy to stay the course on the way down, but should we as fans be concerned that these uber competitive executives are going to be able to stay the course on the way back up, and I think looking at it, with the advantage of history, that they weren't.

 

[Zee]

Not sure about the "flaming out". They lost last year in 7 games to the two time Cup winner in a game which featured the only time I have seen in 50 years that a goal was called back on a "pick". They've been more unlucky than anything, eg. - being in a division that features three of the best teams in the league,  two egregious giveaways in the Montreal series that led to winning goals, Kadri being suspended in two different years. The Columbus series was the only "flame out"- bad goaltending, lack of scoring.

Perhaps the wrong choice of wording.  Pushing to make the playoffs that first season against the Caps hasn't created this battle hardened winning machine.  It's lead to a team that has gone to an elimination game in the first round of the playoffs for 5 straight years, and lost all 5. 

If the Leafs had made the decision to focus on stocking the cupboard some more and then trying to make the playoffs, the Leafs may be further along now with some sacrificing back then.

I have to agree on this.  I know the fanbase was starved for playoffs, but coming off dead last in 2015-2016, there was no need to push for a playoff spot that first season with Matthews.  Instead of trading for Boyle, Leafs should have probably dumped some guys like JVR/Bozak for picks and continued to build the pipeline.  Had they still made the playoffs organically then great, but not at the expense of trading away futures so early in the rebuild.

And if you go back further in that year, trading for Andersen.  That was another deal that set the tone for making the playoffs that season.

It reminds me of a point Nik made around the time Babcock was hired, where he pointed out, and I am paraphrasing here, that it is easy to stay the course on the way down, but should we as fans be concerned that these uber competitive executives are going to be able to stay the course on the way back up, and I think looking at it, with the advantage of history, that they weren't.

Then again, Mark Hunter didn't really dazzle with his later round picks, so who knows if the Leafs pipeline is any better even if you gave him more darts.

 

[hobarth]

I believe the Andersen trade was made possible because of the Kessel trade, the 1st rounder involved was Pitts.

I liked the Boyle trade, I didn't think TO would go far in those playoffs but I did think that the players, new and old, needed to feel the excitement and gain playoff experience which they earned. They weren't ready, they were laying the foundation for future success and then LL felt the need to sign Marleau, LL was the biggest blunder of the early Shanny years. Babs didn't help either, his first year with TO and he had the Leafs within 4 points of being a playoff team at the beginning of January.

   

 

[hobarth]

We can make demands while also being calm, the question is can we be calm if TO loses in the 1st round again this year after Dubie does nothing to significantly improve a roster that absolutely requires a massive infusion of talent and character.

I've lived thru the years since TO's last Cup, I don't know if I will be able to survive another rebuild that might give TO another truly competitive team. TO isn't truly competitive now but can be with some of the pieces already here.

Sometimes Dubie reminds me of supervisors, they can move pieces/employees around just to make it look like they're doing something while also carrying a clip board. Placing Hunt on Waivers, is good, but he should also place Jarnkrok, ZAR, Kerfoot, Kampf and Brodie on waivers, that could potentially clear 13 mil. in Cap space and then use any extra Cap dollars on players that can help instead of just treading water. Rielly should simply be traded because maybe some other team will see some value in him, his greatest value, I'm told, is on the PP, that's why TO was trying, going with 5 forwards and I don't doubt that Timmins could more than adequately replace him in every way.

Listen to what you're saying. I understand not liking the construction of the team but waiving a significant portion of the roster simply isn't an option.

Of course what I'm saying isn't possible but that doesn't mean it isn't needed. The alternative is watching history repeat itself.

I keep reading articles from the media about who TO should trade like Engval and Holl, I figure these are 2 of TO's true value players, they're not overpaid like Kampf, Jarnkrok and others I've mentioned, their contributions to the team dwarfs their compensation. I figure if Engval was promoted like Jarkrok his offensive stats would skyrocket but because he drives the 3rd line like no other bottom 6er, TO can't afford to elevate him.

I wonder what impact Kessel might have provided TO in the first 3 years of the Marner/Mathews years when those two were on ELCs, in the right scenario like he was placed in by the Penguins he might have been the added spark to enable TO to go much further in the playoffs or...

Nylander, Mitch, Matthews, JVR, Bozak, Kadri, Brown, Leo, Johnsson, Hyman, Kapanen and Kessel, wow, that's 4 lines that nobody could've matched, well, thank God TO removed Kessel for Marleau and gave away Phanny? Thank you Shanny!?

Any manager who routinely has his business finish in the top 5 of their industry is a damn good manager imo.

TO doesn't finish top 5 every year, it finishes top 16, if by some miracle TO could progress beyond the 1st round in the playoffs then we could say TO has finished in the top 8, teams actually rest players during the regular season, they make interesting/questionable trades at the TDL because having a good regular season team isn't enough, they're fortifying their teams for the playoffs not ensuring that they finish high in the regular season, finishing well in the regular season doesn't mean a whole lot, to fans or owners, the only concern is they play well enough to make the playoffs and roster improvements enable them to do possibly even better in the playoffs.

The NHL season doesn't end until the teams stop playing which includes the playoffs.

 

[Arn]

I mean the season ends when the season ends.

That's why they call the playoffs the "post season". Because they're after the season. It's in the name.

I'd take performance in an 82 game sample as more representative of an overall performance level of a team than a playoff lottery.

 

[hobarth]

I mean the season ends when the season ends.

That's why they call the playoffs the "post season". Because they're after the season. It's in the name.

I'd take performance in an 82 game sample as more representative of an overall performance level of a team than a playoff lottery.

You can call a rose by any ....