Your personal all-time Leafs team

[#1PilarFan]

No Pilar? This list sucks.

You must have missed my post.  I called out the legend that is Pilar.

You're the hero that we need in these dark times.

 

[leafsjunkie]

People tend to talk about Keon like he was the Patrice Bergeron of his day so points would only be an aspect of the equation.

For my money Sundin's the guy but you can't forget the way winning cups distorts these things.

Does it distort things or does it place things in the correct perspective? The top center on 4 Stanley Cup teams is significantly more than anything Sundin, Gilmour or Sittler ever did.

You're never going to have the correct perspective when Keon won cups in a 6-team league and the others played in a league with 16-30 teams.

Keon beat the best of his time. No leaf since can say the same.

Eddie Shack also beat the best of his time.  Was Shack better than Sundin and Gilmour?

Shack was a 3rd line winger. The only way Shack beat The best of his time was with an elbow to the face. Keon was Leafs #1 center and arguably the best forward in all 4 championships. Only Beliveau achieved what Keon achieved in that era. Mikita, Ullman, Delvecchio, and later Esposito, were guys who routinely out scored Keon but none won 4 cups.

I see.  So then I presume that you would surely be comfortable with the assertion that, say, Sundin's Leafs would have won multiple Stanley Cups if Mats Sundin had been replaced by Dave Keon?

Yes. And if Sundin replaced Keon in the early sixties, Leafs may not have won 4 cups.

Imo, if Sundin had joined the team during that dynasty, he would have been a dissapointment. His story would look more like Bathgate's story than Keon's. Keon had the right stuff, Sundin didn't.

Yeah, that is such BS, boomer.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

People tend to talk about Keon like he was the Patrice Bergeron of his day so points would only be an aspect of the equation.

For my money Sundin's the guy but you can't forget the way winning cups distorts these things.

Does it distort things or does it place things in the correct perspective? The top center on 4 Stanley Cup teams is significantly more than anything Sundin, Gilmour or Sittler ever did.

You're never going to have the correct perspective when Keon won cups in a 6-team league and the others played in a league with 16-30 teams.

Keon beat the best of his time. No leaf since can say the same.

Eddie Shack also beat the best of his time.  Was Shack better than Sundin and Gilmour?

Shack was a 3rd line winger. The only way Shack beat The best of his time was with an elbow to the face. Keon was Leafs #1 center and arguably the best forward in all 4 championships. Only Beliveau achieved what Keon achieved in that era. Mikita, Ullman, Delvecchio, and later Esposito, were guys who routinely out scored Keon but none won 4 cups.

I see.  So then I presume that you would surely be comfortable with the assertion that, say, Sundin's Leafs would have won multiple Stanley Cups if Mats Sundin had been replaced by Dave Keon?

Yes. And if Sundin replaced Keon in the early sixties, Leafs may not have won 4 cups.

Imo, if Sundin had joined the team during that dynasty, he would have been a dissapointment. His story would look more like Bathgate's story than Keon's. Keon had the right stuff, Sundin didn't.

I have no further questions, your honour.

 

[Kin]

Shack was a 3rd line winger. The only way Shack beat The best of his time was with an elbow to the face. Keon was Leafs #1 center and arguably the best forward in all 4 championships. Only Beliveau achieved what Keon achieved in that era. Mikita, Ullman, Delvecchio, and later Esposito, were guys who routinely out scored Keon but none won 4 cups.

I think the game has changed so much over the years that these sort of cross generational comparisons are largely useless but as someone whose fandom started in the 80's, if I'm looking back on the history of the club using the criteria you're outlining here then I'm really not sure about the argument for Keon over Kennedy. Their scoring numbers are virtually identical on a per game basis but Kennedy won more cups, was the Captain of the team for cup wins and has a marginally more impressive record in terms of end of year all star teams and award voting(3 second team AS to 2 for Keon, 4 top 5 Hart finishes to only 1 for Keon).

 

[Pick]

Shack was a 3rd line winger. The only way Shack beat The best of his time was with an elbow to the face. Keon was Leafs #1 center and arguably the best forward in all 4 championships. Only Beliveau achieved what Keon achieved in that era. Mikita, Ullman, Delvecchio, and later Esposito, were guys who routinely out scored Keon but none won 4 cups.

I think the game has changed so much over the years that these sort of cross generational comparisons are largely useless but as someone whose fandom started in the 80's, if I'm looking back on the history of the club using the criteria you're outlining here then I'm really not sure about the argument for Keon over Kennedy. Their scoring numbers are virtually identical on a per game basis but Kennedy won more cups, was the Captain of the team for cup wins and has a marginally more impressive record in terms of end of year all star teams and award voting(3 second team AS to 2 for Keon, 4 top 5 Hart finishes to only 1 for Keon).

Yes. Unfortunately I never saw him play.

 

[Pick]

People tend to talk about Keon like he was the Patrice Bergeron of his day so points would only be an aspect of the equation.

For my money Sundin's the guy but you can't forget the way winning cups distorts these things.

Does it distort things or does it place things in the correct perspective? The top center on 4 Stanley Cup teams is significantly more than anything Sundin, Gilmour or Sittler ever did.

You're never going to have the correct perspective when Keon won cups in a 6-team league and the others played in a league with 16-30 teams.

Keon beat the best of his time. No leaf since can say the same.

Eddie Shack also beat the best of his time.  Was Shack better than Sundin and Gilmour?

Shack was a 3rd line winger. The only way Shack beat The best of his time was with an elbow to the face. Keon was Leafs #1 center and arguably the best forward in all 4 championships. Only Beliveau achieved what Keon achieved in that era. Mikita, Ullman, Delvecchio, and later Esposito, were guys who routinely out scored Keon but none won 4 cups.

I see.  So then I presume that you would surely be comfortable with the assertion that, say, Sundin's Leafs would have won multiple Stanley Cups if Mats Sundin had been replaced by Dave Keon?

Yes. And if Sundin replaced Keon in the early sixties, Leafs may not have won 4 cups.

Imo, if Sundin had joined the team during that dynasty, he would have been a dissapointment. His story would look more like Bathgate's story than Keon's. Keon had the right stuff, Sundin didn't.

Yeah, that is such BS, boomer.

We can never know for sure.

 

[Bender]

People tend to talk about Keon like he was the Patrice Bergeron of his day so points would only be an aspect of the equation.

For my money Sundin's the guy but you can't forget the way winning cups distorts these things.

Does it distort things or does it place things in the correct perspective? The top center on 4 Stanley Cup teams is significantly more than anything Sundin, Gilmour or Sittler ever did.

You're never going to have the correct perspective when Keon won cups in a 6-team league and the others played in a league with 16-30 teams.

Keon beat the best of his time. No leaf since can say the same.

Eddie Shack also beat the best of his time.  Was Shack better than Sundin and Gilmour?

Shack was a 3rd line winger. The only way Shack beat The best of his time was with an elbow to the face. Keon was Leafs #1 center and arguably the best forward in all 4 championships. Only Beliveau achieved what Keon achieved in that era. Mikita, Ullman, Delvecchio, and later Esposito, were guys who routinely out scored Keon but none won 4 cups.

I see.  So then I presume that you would surely be comfortable with the assertion that, say, Sundin's Leafs would have won multiple Stanley Cups if Mats Sundin had been replaced by Dave Keon?

Yes. And if Sundin replaced Keon in the early sixties, Leafs may not have won 4 cups.

Imo, if Sundin had joined the team during that dynasty, he would have been a dissapointment. His story would look more like Bathgate's story than Keon's. Keon had the right stuff, Sundin didn't.

Yeah, that is such BS, boomer.

We can never know for sure.

One thing I know for sure is saying a guy as "having the right stuff" is horrible analysis.

 

[Pick]

People tend to talk about Keon like he was the Patrice Bergeron of his day so points would only be an aspect of the equation.

For my money Sundin's the guy but you can't forget the way winning cups distorts these things.

Does it distort things or does it place things in the correct perspective? The top center on 4 Stanley Cup teams is significantly more than anything Sundin, Gilmour or Sittler ever did.

You're never going to have the correct perspective when Keon won cups in a 6-team league and the others played in a league with 16-30 teams.

Keon beat the best of his time. No leaf since can say the same.

Eddie Shack also beat the best of his time.  Was Shack better than Sundin and Gilmour?

Shack was a 3rd line winger. The only way Shack beat The best of his time was with an elbow to the face. Keon was Leafs #1 center and arguably the best forward in all 4 championships. Only Beliveau achieved what Keon achieved in that era. Mikita, Ullman, Delvecchio, and later Esposito, were guys who routinely out scored Keon but none won 4 cups.

I see.  So then I presume that you would surely be comfortable with the assertion that, say, Sundin's Leafs would have won multiple Stanley Cups if Mats Sundin had been replaced by Dave Keon?

Yes. And if Sundin replaced Keon in the early sixties, Leafs may not have won 4 cups.

Imo, if Sundin had joined the team during that dynasty, he would have been a dissapointment. His story would look more like Bathgate's story than Keon's. Keon had the right stuff, Sundin didn't.

Yeah, that is such BS, boomer.

We can never know for sure.

One thing I know for sure is saying a guy as "having the right stuff" is horrible analysis.

I hate typing on this outdated iPad.

 

[Boston Leaf]

Clark- Sittler - Ellis
Thompson - Sundin - Vaive
Damphouuse - Keon - MacDonald
Kulemin - Gilmour - Leeman
Mogilny

Salming Kaberle
Turnbull _ Lefebvre
Rouse - Glennie
Riley

Palmateer
Potvin
Anderson

Coach Burns
GM Quinn

 

[Pick]

Clark- Sittler - Ellis
Thompson - Sundin - Vaive
Damphouuse - Keon - MacDonald
Kulemin - Gilmour - Leeman
Mogilny

Salming Kaberle
Turnbull _ Lefebvre
Rouse - Glennie
Riley

Palmateer
Potvin
Anderson

Coach Burns
GM Quinn

Glennie?
He made the top 100 list, right?
I remember Glennie as slow with very modest puck handling skills. I remember a 5th or 6th defenseman who averaged about 2 goals per season. He was a very good open ice hitter but he could be beaten one on one.
In his prime,  Dorey, Ley, MCKenny, Selwood, were considered better and maybe Pelyk too. These were weak teams. Later, Salming and Turnbull were rated higher.
I ask respectfully - why is Glennie even in this discussion?

 

[Highlander]

Many of the things you say about Glennie are correct, I wouldn't rank him even on my 2nd team.  However Glennie was the best hip checker in the game, ever.  And he threw them multiple times in a game. Guys feared him and when an offensive player has fear they are going to go off their game when he was on the ice.
Wish more guys would do the hip check.

 

[Pick]

Many of the things you say about Glennie are correct, I wouldn't rank him even on my 2nd team.  However Glennie was the best hip checker in the game, ever.  And he threw them multiple times in a game. Guys feared him and when an offensive player has fear they are going to go off their game when he was on the ice.
Wish more guys would do the hip check.

I remember those hits and agree Glennie was one of the very best hitters, certainly. But Dorey had more skill and was even scarier than Glennie because he was crazy mean. The same could be said about Hutchison. Hutchinson was just as horrible skills wise as Glennie but scarier because he was crazy too. I don't see those names on anybody's list.

Actually , an over the hill Baun played ahead of Glennie and he was a pretty good open ice hitter too.

The only season Glennie played on the top 4 was in 72 after Leafs lost Dorey to trade, Baun to injury, and Selwood and Ley to the WHA. After Baun's career ending injury early that season, Leafs were left with McKenny, Pelyk and Glennie as the only experienced defenseman.Glennie had only to beat rookies (and future HOF'ers), Lundrigan, MacIntyre, Grisdale and later Fortier (btw, IMo, Grisdale was a better dman than Glennie.

The following season, Salming and Turnbull pushed Glennie back down to 5th or 6th where he belonged and remained till he got traded for Hutchinson.

Glennie makes Team Canada '72, he makes the Leafs top 100 list, and he's mentioned on this board in this topic. I don't get it, but I appreciate your comments and would like to read more on the subject because imo, Based on the above, Glennie could be the most over rated Leaf since I've been watching.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Just as a way to keep busy or engage the board I thought I'd start with asking people to name their personal team of favourite Leafs. Not best, just guys you like or you associate with your fandom. Naming 13 forwards, 7 d, 3 goalies. If you want it to be guys you didn't see from the olden days...I mean, I can't stop you.

For those arguing about who was better..remember, Nik's original ask was for your "favourite" players. Not who you considered to be the best. I get why it went that way, but someone putting down Glennie doesn't necessarily mean they thought he was the best defenceman he ever saw. He has Kulemin on his list. Obviously this is a list of his favourite players.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Just as a way to keep busy or engage the board I thought I'd start with asking people to name their personal team of favourite Leafs. Not best, just guys you like or you associate with your fandom. Naming 13 forwards, 7 d, 3 goalies. If you want it to be guys you didn't see from the olden days...I mean, I can't stop you.

For those arguing about who was better..remember, Nik's original ask was for your "favourite" players. Not who you considered to be the best. I get why it went that way, but someone putting down Glennie doesn't necessarily mean they thought he was the best defenceman he ever saw. He has Kulemin on his list. Obviously this is a list of his favourite players.

Yup. I am most curious to hear explanations for why posters are listing these more low-key players though. Usually good stories behind them.

 

[Boston Leaf]

Clark- Sittler - Ellis
Thompson - Sundin - Vaive
Damphouuse - Keon - MacDonald
Kulemin - Gilmour - Leeman
Mogilny

Salming Kaberle
Turnbull _ Lefebvre
Rouse - Glennie
Riley

Palmateer
Potvin
Anderson

Coach Burns
GM Quinn

Glennie?
He made the top 100 list, right?
I remember Glennie as slow with very modest puck handling skills. I remember a 5th or 6th defenseman who averaged about 2 goals per season. He was a very good open ice hitter but he could be beaten one on one.
In his prime,  Dorey, Ley, MCKenny, Selwood, were considered better and maybe Pelyk too. These were weak teams. Later, Salming and Turnbull were rated higher.
I ask respectfully - why is Glennie even in this discussion?

Maybe I didn't follow directions.. I went with my favorties not the best. Glennie was definitely not a top 7 all time Leaf d-man but as a young Leaf fan he took me out of the seat with his hits. Gave an honest effort each game. just a favorite of mine

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Maybe I didn't follow directions.. I went with my favorties not the best.

Nope that was the intention! Everyone's "best Leafs" lists would probably be pretty boring.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Just as a way to keep busy or engage the board I thought I'd start with asking people to name their personal team of favourite Leafs. Not best, just guys you like or you associate with your fandom. Naming 13 forwards, 7 d, 3 goalies. If you want it to be guys you didn't see from the olden days...I mean, I can't stop you.

For those arguing about who was better..remember, Nik's original ask was for your "favourite" players. Not who you considered to be the best. I get why it went that way, but someone putting down Glennie doesn't necessarily mean they thought he was the best defenceman he ever saw. He has Kulemin on his list. Obviously this is a list of his favourite players.

Yup. I am most curious to hear explanations for why posters are listing these more low-key players though. Usually good stories behind them.

Exactly. For instance, I loved Danny Markov because the guy would step in front of an 18 wheeler if it meant he was helping his team.

 

[Pick]

Clark- Sittler - Ellis
Thompson - Sundin - Vaive
Damphouuse - Keon - MacDonald
Kulemin - Gilmour - Leeman
Mogilny

Salming Kaberle
Turnbull _ Lefebvre
Rouse - Glennie
Riley

Palmateer
Potvin
Anderson

Coach Burns
GM Quinn

Glennie?
He made the top 100 list, right?
I remember Glennie as slow with very modest puck handling skills. I remember a 5th or 6th defenseman who averaged about 2 goals per season. He was a very good open ice hitter but he could be beaten one on one.
In his prime,  Dorey, Ley, MCKenny, Selwood, were considered better and maybe Pelyk too. These were weak teams. Later, Salming and Turnbull were rated higher.
I ask respectfully - why is Glennie even in this discussion?

Maybe I didn't follow directions.. I went with my favorties not the best. Glennie was definitely not a top 7 all time Leaf d-man but as a young Leaf fan he took me out of the seat with his hits. Gave an honest effort each game. just a favorite of mine

Got it. I agree with you on the hits. Some of the best in the last 50 years. Someone called his hits hip-checks but the best ones I remember were full body hits where he brought his forearms up to his chest and stood on his heels on impact.

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

Anybody who could rip the freezer door off a fridge is an absolute madman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cG7BgA0YWw

 

[Arn]

Kind of related to this, Jonas Siegel at The Atheltic has done his top 25 players of the last 25 years, which kind of aligns with my time as a fan. It's a "best" list but I'd say they're his fvourites too. I'll post the list (and the links) if anyone wants to discuss any of them:

25-11 (https://theathletic.com/1685180/2020/03/31/jonas-siegels-top-25-toronto-maple-leafs-of-the-past-25-years-part-i/)

25 Mikhail Grabovsky
24 Zach Hyman
23 Sergei Berezin
22 Frederik Andersen
21 Jake Gardiner
20 James Van Riemsdyk
19 Tyler Bozak
18 William Nylander
17 Doug Gilmour
16 Dmitry Yushkevich
15 Nazem Kadri
14 Darcy Tucker
13 Alexander Mogilny
12 Morgan Rielly
11 Bryan McCabe

10-1 (https://theathletic.com/1679341/2020/04/01/top-25-toronto-maple-leafs-of-the-past-25-years-counting-down-nos-10-1/)

10 Steve Thomas
9 Gary Roberts
8 John Tavares
7 Ed Belfour
6 Tomas Kaberle
5 Phil Kessel
4 Mitch Marner
3 Curtis Joseph
2 Auston Matthews
1 Mats Sundin