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2011 Blue Jays/MLB Thread

Vernon Wells has checked in on the case of the man in the white shirt. From Anaheim, VW said it's ridiculous, laughable. Case closed.
by rgriffinstar via twitter 11:44 AM
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643spn



Also.....another McGowan update:

TORONTO -- Dustin McGowan took another step forward in his possible return to the Major Leagues with an impressive outing for Double-A New Hampshire on Wednesday afternoon.

McGowan allowed just one hit and two walks while striking out four in four scoreless innings. It was his first start for the Fisher Cats after making his first seven rehab appearances with Class-A Dunedin.

The 29-year-old, who hasn't appeared in the big leagues since 2008 because of a variety of shoulder injuries, got through the four innings on just 43 pitches. That fell short of his 65-pitch limit, but the Blue Jays had predetermined he wouldn't surpass four frames.
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http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110810&content_id=23031526&notebook_id=23036460&vkey=notebook_tor&c_id=tor


EDIT: And finally....a touching story involving Bautista and a diehard fan dying of cancer: http://www.torontosun.com/2011/08/10/bautsita-knocks-one-out-of-the-park-for-ailing-jays-fan
 
I find the sign stealing allegation ridiculous.  But for discussion sake, I really don't find it to be a big deal if it were true.  I suppose it's another layer added to the whole notion of home field advantage.  Plus, should the onus not be on the team to adapt and adjust and mix up their signs at any hint of this?  What a load of bunk.

Anyways, was at the game tonight.  I was right by the foul pole when Lawrie hit the grand slam and it seemed like an eternity that the ball was in the air waiting to come down.  He is going to make the SkyDome an electric place again.  His defensive work at 3rd needs a lot of refining, but for the moment, his bat can do all the talking for him.
 
Peter D. said:
I find the sign stealing allegation ridiculous.  But for discussion sake, I really don't find it to be a big deal if it were true.  I suppose it's another layer added to the whole notion of home field advantage.  Plus, should the onus not be on the team to adapt and adjust and mix up their signs at any hint of this?  What a load of bunk.
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I couldn't disagree more. There are very good reasons why this sort of thing shouldn't be done or allowed.

To start with, if this practice were acceptable, there's no reason why the Yankees couldn't park a guy right next to the Jays guy in CF(assuming there is one) and do the exact same thing. So there is no reason why it'd be a "home field advantage". It'd just make stealing signs part of the game.

Worse than that, it'd make stealing signs a really important part of the game. A baseball game would then be hugely impacted by the actions of a non-player sitting in CF as opposed to the players on the field. Suddenly the abilities of a team to steal signs, and the technology to relay them, would be another area of competition between teams. Call me old-fashioned but I'd rather it be about which guys are better at playing baseball.

And where would it end? Tapped bullpen phones? Bugs in clubhouses?

Like people have said, if you can get a runner to second base, try to steal a sign. But having non-players stealing signs in the bleachers would violate a pretty fundamental aspect of the game(that being that a hitter shouldn't know what's coming).
 
Saint Nik said:
I couldn't disagree more. There are very good reasons why this sort of thing shouldn't be done or allowed.

To start with, if this practice were acceptable, there's no reason why the Yankees couldn't park a guy right next to the Jays guy in CF(assuming there is one) and do the exact same thing. So there is no reason why it'd be a "home field advantage". It'd just make stealing signs part of the game.

Worse than that, it'd make stealing signs a really important part of the game. A baseball game would then be hugely impacted by the actions of a non-player sitting in CF as opposed to the players on the field. Suddenly the abilities of a team to steal signs, and the technology to relay them, would be another area of competition between teams. Call me old-fashioned but I'd rather it be about which guys are better at playing baseball.

And where would it end? Tapped bullpen phones? Bugs in clubhouses?

Like people have said, if you can get a runner to second base, try to steal a sign. But having non-players stealing signs in the bleachers would violate a pretty fundamental aspect of the game(that being that a hitter shouldn't know what's coming).
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Weren't the Yankees accused of stealing/flashing signs with their scoreboard a years ago?  Something to the effect of one blinking light on the bottom corner suggested one pitch, two flashes suggested another.  Doesn't necessarily have to be a fan sitting in centre field and that's what I'd consider home-field advantage.  And I highly doubt that the Jays/Yankees *supposedly* are the first team to try this.

I must really be missing something here because I just can't wrap my head around the legitimacy of such thing.  I sit at home with the camera zoomed in on the catcher flashing a whack of signs and the majority of the time I have no clue what's going to be thrown.  For someone to be 400 feet away and to relay an accurate sign within a matter of seconds before the pitch is thrown to the plate is pretty damn impressive.

Tapped bullpens, bugs in clubhouses -- even those I question how much impact they'd have.  I could sit behind home plate and yell "outside", "inside" and so on and I doubt that it'd have much of an impact on the team's hitting ability.  I'd love to find out first that teams can, with their naked eye, from the dugout for instance, be able to steal the signs of the opposing team's base coaches to know what play they intend to implement.  Sure, things are picked up, but I do believe that the onus is on the opposing team to either run a different set of signs or hide them better if they feel there is some sort of outside interference.
 
Wasn't really what I was thinking of, but just one accusation against the Yankees from the beginning of this year:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/03/sports/baseball/03signs.html?_r=1

Another ballpark accusation:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/La-Russa-files-complaint-over-Miller-Park-scoreb?urn=mlb-wp14755

A story from 1997:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1010455/index.htm
 
Players using 'roids" violated a pretty fundamental aspect of the game didnt it? Cheating.... so what ? Didnt stop them until they got caught.... so change things up to be more confusing. like the signs from 3rd.... whats the biggie? 1=breaking ball, 3=fastball... etc.... thats no big stretch is it? MIx it up between innings... its not like these guys are memorizing a lunch sequence at NASA or anything
 
With the exception of Maybe Aaron Hill, the Jays now have a collection of talent at every position that I'm genuinely excited to see game in, game out. Most (maybe all of them) are young, high ceiling guys who could be All-Stars one day. I'd even categorize a few of our arms who are already up here that way too. This is all of course saying nothing of quite a large collection of fine prospects who we haven't seen yet. I'm confident the bullpen will be sorted out by next spring. Man, I'm really stoked about this team. 
 
Peter D. said:
Weren't the Yankees accused of stealing/flashing signs with their scoreboard a years ago?  Something to the effect of one blinking light on the bottom corner suggested one pitch, two flashes suggested another.  Doesn't necessarily have to be a fan sitting in centre field and that's what I'd consider home-field advantage.  And I highly doubt that the Jays/Yankees *supposedly* are the first team to try this.
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I'm not really sure what your point is here. There have been lots of teams trying things they shouldn't over the years. It doesn't change that it's not something you're supposed to do and the reason you're not supposed to do it is because it changes the game and emphasizes things that don't happen on the field of play.

Peter D. said:
I must really be missing something here because I just can't wrap my head around the legitimacy of such thing.  I sit at home with the camera zoomed in on the catcher flashing a whack of signs and the majority of the time I have no clue what's going to be thrown
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But you're also not someone who's around big league signs and know the way teams do things. If it was your job to study game film and break the signs down it could probably be done pretty quickly.

Peter D. said:
Tapped bullpens, bugs in clubhouses -- even those I question how much impact they'd have.  I could sit behind home plate and yell "outside", "inside" and so on and I doubt that it'd have much of an impact on the team's hitting ability.  I'd love to find out first that teams can, with their naked eye, from the dugout for instance, be able to steal the signs of the opposing team's base coaches to know what play they intend to implement.  Sure, things are picked up, but I do believe that the onus is on the opposing team to either run a different set of signs or hide them better if they feel there is some sort of outside interference.
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Well, regardless of the level of the impact it may or may not have it's still a game of baseball and not the Cold War. Teams shouldn't be trying to win by means of sophisticated technological espionage.
 
Saint Nik said:
I'm not really sure what your point is here. There have been lots of teams trying things they shouldn't over the years. It doesn't change that it's not something you're supposed to do and the reason you're not supposed to do it is because it changes the game and emphasizes things that don't happen on the field of play.
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I'm more frustrated that the Jays are categorized as such huge cheaters in this whole thing as if this is some new shocking revelation where in fact it's been going on for years.  I'm curious to know how much traction this story would get on the negative side if it were the Yankees instead of the Jays.

Saint Nik said:
But you're also not someone who's around big league signs and know the way teams do things. If it was your job to study game film and break the signs down it could probably be done pretty quickly.

Well, regardless of the level of the impact it may or may not have it's still a game of baseball and not the Cold War. Teams shouldn't be trying to win by means of sophisticated technological espionage.
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Unfortunately, technology has a huge impact in today's world, sports included.  Perhaps studying game film and breaking down pitchers' and players' tendencies should be frowned upon as well. 
 
Peter D. said:
I'm more frustrated that the Jays are categorized as such huge cheaters in this whole thing as if this is some new shocking revelation where in fact it's been going on for years.  I'm curious to know how much traction this story would get on the negative side if it were the Yankees instead of the Jays.
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Leaving aside the fact that the Yankees get a metric ton of negative press, nobody gets insulation from doing something wrong on the grounds that other people have done it in the past. Even still, this is from that New York Times story you quoted:

Baseball operations bulletin C-4 forbids team employees from using hand signals to convey pitch speeds and types.
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So it's not something you're allowed to do.

Peter D. said:
Unfortunately, technology has a huge impact in today's world, sports included.  Perhaps studying game film and breaking down pitchers' and players' tendencies should be frowned upon as well.
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Or, to use a similarly ridiculous argument, maybe you'd be fine with the Blue Jays slipping knockout drops into the visiting team's Gatorade. After all, show me where in the rule book it says you can't?

The issue isn't the use of technology, it's that you'd be effectively changing the nature of the game and encouraging teams to win by virtue of off-field shenanigans.
 
I think it would be hilarious if it turns out that indeed there was no sign stealing and that it was just some fan in a white shirt messing around with the heads of opposing teams.
 
Looks like Mills got thumped pretty good in the 3rd inning today. 6-0 Oakland going to the bottom of the 3rd. OUCH.
 
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