2012 CBA Negotiations Thread

[bustaheims]

I still think tactically that first offer was a mistake on their part. I think they could have achieved largely the same results starting at 45 or 47% and it would have been seen as less of an insulting offer that stood no realistic chance of starting a discussion. Combined with some rollback of contracting rights that they should never have put on the table in the first place and I think that offer did more to galvanize the PA than anything.

I think the contracting rights were the bigger issue. Had the NHL's proposal been 43% and only dealt with contracts lengths/variances (maybe a little more lenient than where they are now), it probably would have been received more favourably. I also don't think it helped the process that the PA came back with a completely delinked system in response. That galvanized both sides and really frustrated the process.

 

[Kin]

I think the contracting rights were the bigger issue. Had the NHL's proposal been 43% and only dealt with contracts lengths/variances (maybe a little more lenient than where they are now), it probably would have been received more favourably.

I think that's largely a separate issue. I think that if the owners had come out and ignored the issue of contracting rights they could have the economic system they want right now and, quite frankly, I think that stance would have given their claims to needing a new economic system more weight.

That said, I disagree about the 43%. That number, and I've heard this said by quite a few media folk, was specifically seen as a slap in the face by a lot of more moderate members among the PA. That was a blunder, plain and simple.

I also don't think it helped the process that the PA came back with a completely delinked system in response. That galvanized both sides and really frustrated the process.

I disagree. I think it was a non-starter but that's not something that owners are going to get worked up over. In fact, I think there are probably more than a few owners who would do better with a delinked system.

More than that though, I think that just as a general rule the owners are looking at what the PA is offering in a strictly business sense. I don't think they're going to be insulted or galvanized by an offer.

 

[Kin]

Are you ready for an Anti-Trust Lawsuit? (guitar squeal)

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/8770368/nhlpa-votes-authorize-move-disband-sources-say

 

[Tigger]

So the vote came in 706 to 22 in favour? Solid message from the pa.

 

[Rebel_1812]

Their proposal of 43% was, according to a number of people who have been through CBA negotiations, a pretty clear indication that they expected to end up at 50%.

I still think tactically that first offer was a mistake on their part. I think they could have achieved largely the same results starting at 45 or 47% and it would have been seen as less of an insulting offer that stood no realistic chance of starting a discussion. Combined with some rollback of contracting rights that they should never have put on the table in the first place and I think that offer did more to galvanize the PA than anything.

I agree 100%

It's like lowballing someone when you make an offer on their house. You may get lucky if they're really desperate but most times you just p*ss them off and make them not want to deal with you.

Thats how I usually get with people that haggle over things.  If your looking for a sucker deal go to Wal-Mart.

 

[Hampreacher]

Part of the issue in my mind was Bettmans dictation take it or leave it tactic created a big part of the problem early on and I think Fehrs trying to change the offer of acouple of weeks ago was a bad mistake. But things seemed to be going fine until Fehr anf Bettman got involved. What does that tell you?

 

[Kin]

But things seemed to be going fine until Fehr anf Bettman got involved. What does that tell you?

That you're not paying super-close attention to what's happening.

Seriously, if getting 97% of players to vote in favour of authorizing the disclaimer of interest doesn't stop you from blaming Fehr for the player's position, what would have? 98? 99?

 

[Hampreacher]

First I think he sold players on the notion to vote as they did would have owners giving in or get a better deal. I am afraid the season is lost and probably the NHL as we know it. It will have fewer teams and not near the market share , at least in US.

 

[Hampreacher]

If the season is lost as it appears headed that way what is lost?
In my opinion the league loses 6 teams and puts several more in jeopordy. They lose a share of the sports market dollars and credability they will never regain. They players will lose 150 uion players jobs, plus.  I think they should take the last offer before Fehr's apparrent deal breaker stunt and both players and owners vote on it.  I also think owners need to look long and hard at firing Bettman. He has had three lockouts in his tenure and that tells us he has failed to lead the league. For the good of the league they need to have at least a shortened season. It is stupids to think they will recover if they miss this season without any damage.

 

[Rebel_1812]

If there are dire consequences; good.  It is the only way the owners will learn its not a good idea to have a lockout every time the CBA is up for renewal.  If dissolving the union loses the season, it would be the only pro sport to have that happen.  The other two leagues were still able to get a deal done, however those owners do not employ the take it or leave style of bettman.

 

[Bender]

If there are dire consequences; good.  It is the only way the owners will learn its not a good idea to have a lockout every time the CBA is up for renewal.  If dissolving the union loses the season, it would be the only pro sport to have that happen.  The other two leagues were still able to get a deal done, however those owners do not employ the take it or leave style of bettman.

If we lose the season the Leafs will probably get a better draft pick so whatever

 

[Deebo]

If there are dire consequences; good.  It is the only way the owners will learn its not a good idea to have a lockout every time the CBA is up for renewal.  If dissolving the union loses the season, it would be the only pro sport to have that happen.  The other two leagues were still able to get a deal done, however those owners do not employ the take it or leave style of bettman.

If we lose the season the Leafs will probably get a better draft pick so whatever

Under the system they used last lockout, the leafs would have a 5% chance at #1 over all and could end up as low as 30.

 

[hockeyfan1]

New CBA offer?...

John Shannon@JSportsnet
Can confirm the NHL made counter late last night. Improved on term,variance and amnesty. Still 10 year deal.

Michael Grange@michaelgrange
It is really hard to take seriously that the latest proposal from #NHL as 'movement' -- two sides have been inches apart for months.

Latest offer, according to sources, includes:

- player contract limits of six years.

- one compliance buyout per team that would count against the players' overall share in revenue but not against the salary cap.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-lockout/2012/12/28/nhl_new_offer_cba_lockout_nhlpa/

 

[bustaheims]

Real_ESPNLeBrun: NHL offer calls for term limit on player contracts to be six years (7 if you're re-signing your own guys).

DarrenDreger: Among the changes in the new proposal, the NHL adjusted its max contract length from 5 to 6 yrs. Boosted the variance from 5% to 10%.

Real_ESPNLeBrun: New offer sees each team afforded one compliance buyout prior to 2013-14 season. Doesn't count vs. cap but it does vs. players' share

Real_ESPNLeBrun: Also the Make Whole $$$$ stays at $300 million

Real_ESPNLeBrun: At this point there is no scheduled meeting between both sides set for today. NHLPA needs time to review lengthy and detailed offer from NHL

Real_ESPNLeBrun: Player says new league offer still calls for salary cap to be $60 M for 2013-14 season, which could be an issue (escrow).

Real_ESPNLeBrun: But overall, league has moved in key areas here. Will be interesting to see how NHLPA responds

Real_ESPNLeBrun: Should mention that in NHL offer the league maintains desire to change start of free agency from July 1 to July 10

Real_ESPNLeBrun: Remains 10 years  (mutual opt-out after 8) RT @canucksrepublic: @Real_ESPNLeBrun what about length of CBA?

 

[Bender]

What I don't understand is what will movement be characterized? They cant stalemate forever and we know both parties will begrudgingly accept the next CBA, so when will the deal be not bad enough so both parties agree to it?

 

[Bender]

"@SunGarrioch: My sources say owners have privately informed Bettman cancelling the season is not an acceptable option."

 

[bustaheims]

What I don't understand is what will movement be characterized? They cant stalemate forever and we know both parties will begrudgingly accept the next CBA, so when will the deal be not bad enough so both parties agree to it?

At this point, there's really not a lot of room left between the two sides of most issues, which means there's not a whole lot of movement left to be made. What might be the big hold up on this most recent proposal, from what I can tell so far from some media guys, is the escrow in year 2. The PA wanted a cap on escrow in their last proposal, and I don't see any way the league goes for that.

 

[Andy007]

What I don't understand is what will movement be characterized? They cant stalemate forever and we know both parties will begrudgingly accept the next CBA, so when will the deal be not bad enough so both parties agree to it?

At this point, there's really not a lot of room left between the two sides of most issues, which means there's not a whole lot of movement left to be made. What might be the big hold up on this most recent proposal, from what I can tell so far from some media guys, is the escrow in year 2. The PA wanted a cap on escrow in their last proposal, and I don't see any way the league goes for that.

I would think that the max contract length would be another hold up. The PA offered 8 an yr max and I doubt they go as low as 6.

 

[bustaheims]

I would think that the max contract length would be another hold up. The PA offered 8 an yr max and I doubt they go as low as 6.

I actually don't think that'll be much of an issue. The league offered 6 and 7, the PA last offered 8 flat. Odds are they compromise here and settle at 7 flat.

Variance will be a bigger issue. The PA's latest proposal allowed for a drop of up to 75% over the life of a contract or an increase of up to 300% over the life of a contract. The league has just offered 10% per season either way, which works out to slightly less than 47% drop over a 7 year deal or slightly more than 77% increase over a 7 year deal.

 

[bustaheims]

Real_ESPNLeBrun: Via an NHL team source, highlights from the NHL's new offer to the NHLPA (from letter all 30 teams got) _ http://t.co/592DIpHq