2012 CBA Negotiations Thread

[Hampreacher]

If the problem is that ten teams loing money some big time. Move them or fold them. O r at least some. Seattle, Portland. Moncton, Quebec City and Hamilton are possibilties.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

The Current had a decent panel of people discussing the lockout this morning. Bettman was somewhat raked across the coals for continuing to try and make the "Southern Strategy" a success. If anybody wants to listen:

http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/2012/10/01/nhl-lockout-sparks-call-for-more-canadian-teams/

I'm at the point where I really hope the owners get taught a lesson over this. Forget an equitable split. If they continue to be unreasonable, I hope this costs the league (well I guess that would mean the players as well) a bunch of money on Phoenix, Columbus and others. Grrrrrrr...

I took a listen and I'm not entirely sure it's fair to say Bettman got raked over the coals. I think that some pretty fair points were made that a lot of people forget about how the push to move teams south in the 90's existed pre-Bettman(the teams added under Bettman have been Columbus, Atlanta, Nashville and Minnesota) and I think Zimbalist, who was most critical of the strategy to expand throughout the US, did make a pretty embarrassing omission by not mentioning that the League now has a 2 billion dollar US tv deal.

That said, I do think they made some interesting points regarding where the league might grow in the future. I think it's important to point out that the general consensus seemed to be that putting teams in Canada wasn't a good move for long-term growth and that Europe is a far more lucrative option.

I think that's kind of important going forward for people to keep in mind. For all the talk about how the NHL would be so better off in Canada as opposed to the US, Forbes' numbers have the Jets as losing money last year and the Flames/Senators as being only barely profitable. The idea that some people put forth during the whole Balsillie mess that moving a team to Canada would be a terrific boon for both the league and that owner just doesn't seem to be true. Canada may very well be tapped out as a market.

Well I guess I could have said he didn't get a lot of love to be more accurate. Zimbalist basically said he's been a failure so I took a bit of liberty from there.

As to Canada being tapped out as a market, I think that's largely true, for now. TV revenue is about as high as it'll get. Pretty much everyone and their mother (that is the whole country minus my wife) already watches hockey and has a team they root for, whether it's a few Km's away or half way across the country. It becomes a numbers game where Canada simply doesn't have enough viewers to bring in the big dollars. I can see why Bettman et al continually try to keep the conversation about keeping teams in the US.

The only two things I can see changing that fact (Canada being tapped out) are population growth (Alberta, Ontario, BC), or putting another team in an existing market with huge earning potential (Toronto).

I also found the Europe comment interesting, though I'm not sure how that would work logistically. I could see some kind of World Hockey League, where there's basically two league's (North America, Europe) that play within their geographical area until there's only 1 team left, which results in a 7 game series split between the two continents. I don't see the NHL simply adding 2-5 European expansion teams ,however.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

If the problem is that ten teams loing money some big time. Move them or fold them. O r at least some. Seattle, Portland. Moncton, Quebec City and Hamilton are possibilties.

Right but as Nik said, it appears that Canada is pretty much tapped out as a market. If Winnipeg/Ottawa/Calgary have trouble being profitable, why would Moncton/QC/Hamilton have a better chance?

I think Seattle's an interesting choice that could work out quite well.

 

[Corn Flake]

From Adrian Dater, writes for the Denver Post:

adater ‏@adater

I was talking to a highly placed hockey source tonight who said...

Owners aren't budging off their HRR revenue take desires and neither are players. But only on the first year. After that, the revenue takes start to get closer to even. So essentially this whole NHL lockout is coming down to that first year of the revenue split. Would they really lose a whole year over a 3-4 point difference?

Or in other words, lose the entire year of revenue they can't agree on how to split?

 

[Kin]

If the problem is that ten teams loing money some big time. Move them or fold them. O r at least some. Seattle, Portland. Moncton, Quebec City and Hamilton are possibilties.

I'm sorry but Moncton, New Brunswick? A city that's about 1/7th the size of Winnipeg, the league's smallest market? A city that's a third of the size of Windsor or London? They're a possibility for what, exactly?

 

[Kin]

Well I guess I could have said he didn't get a lot of love to be more accurate. Zimbalist basically said he's been a failure so I took a bit of liberty from there.

Yeah, but as I mentioned Zimbalist seemed to base that off his notion that the league doesn't have a US TV deal as opposed to reality of the 2 billion dollar deal that they have with NBC.

I also found the Europe comment interesting, though I'm not sure how that would work logistically. I could see some kind of World Hockey League, where there's basically two league's (North America, Europe) that play within their geographical area until there's only 1 team left, which results in a 7 game series split between the two continents. I don't see the NHL simply adding 2-5 European expansion teams ,however.

I sort of liked the idea floated of maybe having a Memorial Cup style situation where you have three divisions, one American, one European, one Canadian and then getting a champion from each league plus a 4th Wild Card team and determining a Stanley Cup that way. It could look like this

Canada:

Toronto
Toronto Jr.
Montreal
Montreal Jr.
Quebec City
Winnipeg
Vancouver
Edmonton
Ottawa
Calgary

America:

Chicago
New York
Boston
Detroit
Philadelphia
Pittsburgh
LA
Colorado
Minnesota
Buffalo
Washington
One of NYI/St. Louis/San Jose

Europe:

Prague
Helsinki
Oslo
Stockholm
Moscow
Kiev
London
Geneva
St. Petersberg
And then, I don't know, Magnitogorsk or Bratislava or a city with a good KHL fanbase or Rome/Paris/Berlin if you were feeling adventurous.

Each league has a regular season where each team has one road trip to the other two leagues. Then they play two/three rounds of playoffs to determine their champion then those three champions plus the remaining team with the best regular season record have another two rounds of playoffs to determine the Stanley Cup.

 

[maplesyrup]

James Mirtle ‏@mirtle
KHL announces agreement to show its games on ESPN3 this season. Will be five games there in next two weeks

Damn, wish I had it.

 

[Kin]

So...the KHL is going to have a presence on ESPN and the NHL won't?

Savvy there, Mr. Bettman.

 

[Britishbulldog]

If the problem is that ten teams loing money some big time. Move them or fold them. O r at least some. Seattle, Portland. Moncton, Quebec City and Hamilton are possibilties.

I'm sorry but Moncton, New Brunswick? A city that's about 1/7th the size of Winnipeg, the league's smallest market? A city that's a third of the size of Windsor or London? They're a possibility for what, exactly?

An NHL franchise might be a bit too much for us to bite off here in Moncton.  We have been recognized as being a municipality to "punch out of our weight class" but this would sink us.

The issue is we host 1 - 4 day events that can draw on over 1,000,000 people from a 3 hour radius because of our location.  I think having people commit to that driving distance for 42 games in our winter climate would be tough.  Like Winnipeg, Moncton might be able to sell 19,000 season tickets but we still have another hurdle.

We don't have the large corporations to help sell boxes. 

Yeah, scratch us off the list because you would need to many variables line up perfectly for Moncton to do it.

 

[Kin]

An NHL franchise might be a bit too much for us to bite off here in Moncton.  We have been recognized as being a municipality to "punch out of our weight class" but this would sink us.

The issue is we host 1 - 4 day events that can draw on over 1,000,000 people from a 3 hour radius because of our location.  I think having people commit to that driving distance for 42 games in our winter climate would be tough.  Like Winnipeg, Moncton might be able to sell 19,000 season tickets but we still have another hurdle.

We don't have the large corporations to help sell boxes. 

Yeah, scratch us off the list because you would need to many variables line up perfectly for Moncton to do it.

That certainly wasn't intended as a shot at the fine people of Moncton, just a recognition that there's not that many of them. Even if you were going to make the argument that there could be a team in the Maritimes, and let's be real that's a tough sell regardless, I think you'd have to go with Halifax.

I mean in addition to everything BBD says above the real obstacle for any municipality these days in terms of hosting a NHL team is having the arena. As the good people of Edmonton are finding out, owners typically want the city to pay for a big chunk of it and for a population of 160,000 or so to kick in 200+ million dollars to build that kind of rink? That would be just the worst kind of craziness.

 

[Champ Kind]

An NHL franchise might be a bit too much for us to bite off here in Moncton.  We have been recognized as being a municipality to "punch out of our weight class" but this would sink us.

The issue is we host 1 - 4 day events that can draw on over 1,000,000 people from a 3 hour radius because of our location.  I think having people commit to that driving distance for 42 games in our winter climate would be tough.  Like Winnipeg, Moncton might be able to sell 19,000 season tickets but we still have another hurdle.

We don't have the large corporations to help sell boxes. 

Yeah, scratch us off the list because you would need to many variables line up perfectly for Moncton to do it.

That certainly wasn't intended as a shot at the fine people of Moncton, just a recognition that there's not that many of them. Even if you were going to make the argument that there could be a team in the Maritimes, and let's be real that's a tough sell regardless, I think you'd have to go with Halifax.

I mean in addition to everything BBD says above the real obstacle for any municipality these days in terms of hosting a NHL team is having the arena. As the good people of Edmonton are finding out, owners typically want the city to pay for a big chunk of it and for a population of 160,000 or so to kick in 200+ million dollars to build that kind of rink? That would be just the worst kind of craziness.

Just to add a bit more to Nik's perspective: lucrative television deals in relatively smaller metro areas would be impossible.  TV and advertising revenue would definitely be less in a less populous area than, say, a major metropolitan market like Seattle.

 

[Deebo]

So another day of meetings, more talk of no progress and no more meetings being scheduled.

I've seen this episode before.

How long before they start formally announcing the cancellation/postponement of regular season games?

My bet is by the end of tomorrow.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Poor fellow Barch, the lockout is getting to him...

Twitter ramblings and all..@krysbarch...from:

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/48581-Krys-Barch-ramblings-and-ownership-fires.html

? ?I have played approx 5 1/2 years in the NHL and have worked for every second of it. I Haven?t been a 1st round pick, bonus baby or a son of a hall of famer. I have made it through sweating, bleeding, cut Achilles, broken hands, concussion, broken orbital bones, 8 teeth knocked out, etc, etc, etc.?

(Wow, and all this time we thought you were in the NHL because your uncanny offensive talent and all-round ability. Oh, we get it. If only every one of the 30 teams wasn?t blind to your abundant talent, you wouldn?t have to go around beating people up.)

? ?No different than a truck driver, farmer or line worker?.?

(Except for the fact that you?ve made $3.8 million in six years, with an upcoming two-year deal worth $1.5 million, lockout deductions not withstanding ? an amount that would take a truck driver, farmer or line worker somewhere between 40 and 50 years to earn.)

? ?I sit here with both my boys sleeping and my wife due with our 3rd. My thoughts racing on what I can conquer tomorrow to get our family ahead.?

(I don?t know, just spitballin? here, but how about not downing eight beers and a bottle of ?Porte??)

? ?Some times (sic) wondering if I should have existed when a word and a gun solidified and solved all problems.?

(Words fail me on that one.)

? ?The system allows the owners to continually take money from the players contract after contract.?

(OK, he was either completely blasted at this point or he has spent the past two collective bargaining agreements under a rock.)

 

[BrownRolo]

Saw this on another site. Have you reserved your copy yet?!?!?

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

I'd love it if a lot of these players that have gone to Europe to play didn't come back.

Have that owners.

 

[bustaheims]

I'd love it if a lot of these players that have gone to Europe to play didn't come back.

Have that owners.

Imagine how much money they'd save not having to pay those guys!

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

"Let me buy my Capitals season tickets, oh what's that? No Oveckin or Backstrom? In fact I'll pass" - Every Capitals fan.

Now will that kind of thing happen? Probably not, but if a few franchise guys get well paid over there, they might be bitter about coming back to the hand that is biting them.

A lot of these European leagues are paying tax free amounts that are equal to or more than the NHL contracts after tax, Europe did not have the financial clout during the last lockout that it has now.

It could make it somewhat interesting, especially considering the comments guys like Ovechkin have make already.

 

[Kin]

"Let me buy my Capitals season tickets, oh what's that? No Oveckin or Backstrom? In fact I'll pass" - Every Capitals fan.

Now will that kind of thing happen? Probably not, but if a few franchise guys get well paid over there, they might be bitter about coming back to the hand that is biting them.

A lot of these European leagues are paying tax free amounts that are equal to or more than the NHL contracts after tax, Europe did not have the financial clout during the last lockout that it has now.

It could make it somewhat interesting, especially considering the comments guys like Ovechkin have make already.

Well, I've said it before but I think the most interesting possible thing that could happen to pro sports is the emergence of a serious competitor to the NHL/NBA as a league from Europe. There's probably not enough money over there to be an even keel competitor but like you say if only a handful of big name guys were over there it would be a big blow to a league that is desperate for star power.

I mean, it's like I said earlier, no matter how bad the EPL might be doing they'll never lock out their players if their players can just sign in the Bundesliga.

 

[Corn Flake]

I keep catching myself not really caring about this much at all.  7 years ago, the last time we went through this, I was figuratively on the edge of my seat every day, sucking up every last bit of news, hoping it was the turning point in the lockout and the imminent return of NHL hockey.  Not this time.

It's feeling a lot like I did when baseball cut the 1994 season short. I stopped paying attention for a long time after that.  I moved on to other things, followed other sports, etc. etc.  Basically just wrote the Jays and the sport right out of my mind for over a decade. I sit here with my Maple Leafs season ticket holder "on hold" emails and letters and have a real hard time not just tossing it and telling them to shove it. 

Too much good local hockey out there to watch to be bothered sitting around waiting for the NHL.  When they finally do come back, will I watch? Yeah probably.  But will I care like I used to?  I'm really not sure I will.

I think they are playing a really dangerous game this time, effing with long-time fans like me who are getting pretty tired of this stuff... fans of teams that haven't been very good for a while are even more susceptible to apathy.

I can't be the only one feeling this way.

 

[maplesyrup]

I can't be the only one feeling this way.

Nope, you're not. A few of us have already expressed these kind of feelings. Maybe part of it is we've all just got (for better or worse) more stuff going on in our lives? Maybe there's just a ton of other things that help to keep our respective boats afloat? Perhaps social media and other easily attainable stimulants that weren't around 7 years ago are part of it? Could we watch just about any movie , TV show, or event for free at anytime back then? I just think the NHL just might have more competition for people's time and money then they did back then. - Or, I could be wrong. 

Anyway, it is really kind of dangerous for the league because as posters on a Leafs fan site, we're a little hardcore, right? I mean, if WE aren't all bent out of shape, what of the fringe guys?