2013 Toronto Blue Jays Thread
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OldTimeHockey
Active member
TML fan said:
Though I didn't see the blow up, I have no issues with him showing emotion. He's completely frustrated with this team. Would you prefer he sat back and did nothing?
OldTimeHockey
Active member
I just like that he's pissed. He didn't David Ortiz it. He's just pissed off at his team. Pissed off at himself and pissed off at the season in general.
He could just laugh and goof off like some of the guys are doing. That would bug me more.
He could just laugh and goof off like some of the guys are doing. That would bug me more.
Kin
New member
OldTimeHockey said:
I don't know. I think that's kind of more of a hockey mentality. I'd actually rather that a team not going well keep it kind of loose so long as they're trying their hardest. If everyone's pissed off and yelling at each other for whatever errors are being made then you're not talking about a lousy team, you're talking about a crummy atmosphere that people don't want to be a part of.
OldTimeHockey
Active member
Nik the Trik said:
Perhaps.
And if it continued like this, I'd have issues. If Lawrie would of continued getting in the faces of players, I would of taken issue.
Bautista getting pissed at the ump doesn't rub me the wrong way I guess.
WhatIfGodWasALeaf
Active member
Watching the Oakland broadcast here in the Bay, Jays have been poor.
I'm a casual fan, but it seems to me the Jays have too many guys who are going for all or nothing at bat, chasing pitches trying to hit homers instead of playing a more reserved game and taking homers when the pitcher serves them up.
It might see them on base a little more and get opposing pitchers sweating, but as I said I know very little about the game, just what I observed tonight.
I'm a casual fan, but it seems to me the Jays have too many guys who are going for all or nothing at bat, chasing pitches trying to hit homers instead of playing a more reserved game and taking homers when the pitcher serves them up.
It might see them on base a little more and get opposing pitchers sweating, but as I said I know very little about the game, just what I observed tonight.
Evil Amish
New member
The other night when Edwin had his two home run inning I was watching the bench after Edwin hit the grandslam. Everyone was laughing and congratulating Edwin except for Bautista who looked like he was still pouting because he popped up during his at bat. I like that a player shows passion for the game but seriously he needs to get over himself a wee bit.
Kin
New member
Maybe it's just that I've been exposed to too much talk radio the last few days but all of this handwringing and searching for explanations as to "what's wrong with the Blue Jays" just strikes me as such a bizarre exercise in missing the obvious. It's not about leadership or "not having an identity" or the team's approach at the plate or clutch hitting. The Jays are 7th in all of Baseball in terms of runs scored. The Bullpen's been great.
The issue begins and ends with the very simple fact that every one of the starting pitchers they started the year with has been bad. Every one. No team is going to win games like that. I don't care if Bautista argues with Umpires or if Lawrie is a hothead. If your top 4 starting pitchers combined have a 0.4 WAR you're going to be a terrible team. The best defense in the world won't fix that.
The issue begins and ends with the very simple fact that every one of the starting pitchers they started the year with has been bad. Every one. No team is going to win games like that. I don't care if Bautista argues with Umpires or if Lawrie is a hothead. If your top 4 starting pitchers combined have a 0.4 WAR you're going to be a terrible team. The best defense in the world won't fix that.
hockeyfan1
New member
Trade deadline soon. what will the Jays do? Here's a look at 5 possible Jays who could be dealt:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/baseball/five-jays-most-likely-to-be-dealt-at-trade-deadline/article13487688/
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/baseball/five-jays-most-likely-to-be-dealt-at-trade-deadline/article13487688/
Andy007
Active member
Nik the Trik said:
Well it certainly won't hurt.
Last night's game is a good indication as to why looking at simple stats like 'runs scored' is a little short sighted. Ultimately the Jays scored 4 runs but didn't get their first run until the 5th inning and already down 8-1. Getting consistently blown out and scoring later-inning runs pads that 'runs scored' stat despite the offense being awol during a large duration of most of the starters' starts.
The starting pitching has been the weakest facet of the team, no doubt about it. But you can't just leave it simply at that. When guys aren't getting consistent run support, that has a negative affect on their pitching performance. Additionally, when the defence is porous, as it has been all year on this team, pitchers pitch differently. They try to be too fine, they try to avoid contact, etc, and that is ignoring the direct affect of errors and un-earned runs.
Now lets look at Dickey's last start- the defence didn't make any errors yet there were two big hits that Bautista and Rasmus, respectively, should have made plays on. That essentially turned a 7 inning 2-3 earned run game into 6 innings 5 er. So it's not just the errors that the team makes and the mental toll that repeated errors have on the starting pitching, there is also the issue of all the non-error plays that this bad defence doesn't make.
So yea, the starting pitching has been bad. But a number of factors have conributed to its futility and playing great defence is simply one step that will change the quality of the pitching, no doubt about it.
Kin
New member
Andy007 said:
Well, A) I reject the premise entirely. Any other team would look at an ability to score runs late as a good thing. The fact that the Jays lousy pitching constantly has them down five or six or seven runs late in games doesn't negate that.
However, B) It doesn't actually fit the facts of the matter. The Blue Jays are 8th in all of baseball in terms of runs scored in the first inning. The Jays score more runs in the first inning than they do in either of the 7th, 8th or 9th. In fact there are only two innings where the Jays could legitimately be called a bad offensive team and that's the 4th and the 8th so it's definitely not a case of saving offense for when they're out of it unless you think that they're out of it by the fifth inning which, because the starting pitching has been so bad, they usually are.
Andy007 said:
Well A) run support isn't the problem as mentioned B)I think you're supposing a link between bad defense/bad pitching numbers that hasn't really been established and C) That too doesn't really fit the facts of the matter. None of the guys on the Jays have good DIPS or FIP numbers. I mean, if what you're saying is true that pitchers "pitch to avoid contact" then you'd think that you'd see a significant uptick in their BB/9 numbers when you don't. Buehrle, Johnson and Morrow all have pretty consistent walk numbers this year. The only guy who has seen a drastic rise in his BB/9 is Dickey and that has nothing to do with locating his pitches differently because nobody locates a knuckleball and he's throwing a higher percentage of knucklers than he has at any point of his career.
The numbers indicate that the issue is that their stuff is getting crushed, not that they're being too fine.
Andy007 said:
Again if that premise held then you would see a more direct correlation between fielding numbers and the number of errors and a team's pitching staff but that just doesn't exist. The team that has made the fewest number of errors in the majors has the 28th ranked ERA. Pittsburgh, the team with the best ERA in baseball, has made the exact same number of errors as the Blue Jays have and aren't a stellar defensive team.
Having a better defense can lower a team's ERA, sure, and I'm not saying that you don't want to improve the defense where possible but I think you're overstating how bad the Jays defense has been. Rasmus especially right now is grading out as having a big defensive season.
Andy007 said:
My point wasn't just that the starting pitching has been bad, although it has, but that it's been universally bad. Everyone's been terrible. That's not something that can be recovered from regardless of outside factors.
Corn Flake
New member
Nik the Trik said:
Yup. it pretty much begins and ends with the SP's. There may be small holes in other areas but if this team had even middle of the pack starting pitching, they could still be in the conversation for the post season.
Corn Flake
New member
Dirk Hayhurst said (paraphrased) that one reason the Blue Jays aren't playing well is because none of the players want to be in Canada. :
Seriously, what made this guy the go to authority on the inner workings of an MLB player? He had a cup of coffee at the MLB level and apparently knows all there is to know. 5 minutes of listening to him and I can't stand him. Incredibly pompous.
Seriously, what made this guy the go to authority on the inner workings of an MLB player? He had a cup of coffee at the MLB level and apparently knows all there is to know. 5 minutes of listening to him and I can't stand him. Incredibly pompous.
I know a lot of people like to use WAR to evaluate players, I get the concept of what the number is supposed to represent but don't know how it is arrived at. Can anyone explain how JP Arencibia has a positive WAR? How bad is a 'replacement' player if how JP has preformed this season is better than one?
Kin
New member
Deebo said:
The idea of a replacement level player is basically the best player at a particular position who doesn't have a MLB job and would qualify as that both offensively and defensively. So you're talking end of the bench, absolute fringe player who isn't a defensive specialist or what have you.
As for JP Arencibia this year it's important to note that there are two different versions of WAR, used by fangraphs and Baseball-Reference, and they differ primarily based on the proprietary defensive metrics they use. While it's true that JP Arencibia has a positive WAR on both it's only a 0.1 and a 0.5 respectively. The Fangraphs one is so small( a tenth of a win over the course of a season) that it's basically meaningless and the BR one has him doing decently as a defensive player which I suspect is the difference. Keep in mind that unless a player is up around 2 he's a fringe starter at best anyway so Arencibia has basically been a replacement level player this year.
hockeyfan1
New member
Fast fact: Blue Jay relievers have played the most inning of any team in MLB -- 388.1. The Minnesota Twins and the Milwaukee Brewers come in tied for 2nd at 380.2, respectively.
Source: Globe and Mail Sports
Source: Globe and Mail Sports
hockeyfan1
New member
Blue Jays reliever Steve Delabar has been placed on the 15-day disabled list with an inflamed shoulder. Delabar is second only to the L.A. Dodgers Kenley Jansen, in strikeouts, with 75.
Source: Globe and Mail Sports
Source: Globe and Mail Sports
hockeyfan1
New member
Leave it to Jose Reyes to explain the Jays' ills...
?No disrespect to some other teams, but we have more talent than some other teams who are playing for first place, playing better than us. We feel like we have more talent, but we haven?t been able to put it together on the field.?
...physical errors, mental errors and fundamental failures have been troublingly commonplace for the Blue Jays in this season off the rails..
?It?s just overall the way that we?re playing,? he said. ?When I look at this team, I see a better team than the way we?re performing on the field. Look around this ball club, there?s a lot of unbelievable talent, and we haven?t been able to put it together so far on the field.
?When I came here I didn?t expect to be in last place in August. That?s a part of baseball, sometimes you never know what?s going to happen. It?s been kind of rough and disappointing because we know as players that we?re better than this. There?s still two months of the season, a lot of stuff can happen in those two months.
?We need to turn it around, badly.?
?Last year I went to Miami, we had an unbelievable ball club and we were never able to do anything, we finished last. Disappointing there. Then I came here, better opportunity to at least go to the playoffs. There?s no doubt in my mind (the 2013 Blue Jays are) much better, way better (than the 2012 Marlins), we came with high expectations here, we haven?t been able to do anything, it?s disappointing because it?s unbelievable talent that we have here. But here we are into August, we?re in last place, and we expected to be on top of our division coming into spring training.
?We had a lot of opportunities to win a lot of ballgames and we just let it get away. That?s not going to get it done.?
Reyes is still playing with pain in his ankle, feeling it especially when he moves to his left in the field or tries to slow down on the basepaths. He doesn?t expect to be fully 100 per cent until next spring, after his ankle gets rest and rehab during the winter.
Despite that, he?s been productive and effective, and the promise of more from him in 2014 should excite the Blue Jays. But that alone won?t get this team over the hump.
?I don?t want to point at no one, me, everybody needs to step up and everybody needs to contribute,? said Reyes. ?This is a team game, everybody needs to contribute if we want to be good, it?s not only one, two or three guys, it?s everybody as a group. All the ball clubs that have been successful this year, they play as a team together and everybody contributes. That?s something we haven?t been able to do so far.?
The standings certainly show it.
For the rest of the story:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/davidi-fundamental-failures-plauging-blue-jays/
?No disrespect to some other teams, but we have more talent than some other teams who are playing for first place, playing better than us. We feel like we have more talent, but we haven?t been able to put it together on the field.?
...physical errors, mental errors and fundamental failures have been troublingly commonplace for the Blue Jays in this season off the rails..
?It?s just overall the way that we?re playing,? he said. ?When I look at this team, I see a better team than the way we?re performing on the field. Look around this ball club, there?s a lot of unbelievable talent, and we haven?t been able to put it together so far on the field.
?When I came here I didn?t expect to be in last place in August. That?s a part of baseball, sometimes you never know what?s going to happen. It?s been kind of rough and disappointing because we know as players that we?re better than this. There?s still two months of the season, a lot of stuff can happen in those two months.
?We need to turn it around, badly.?
?Last year I went to Miami, we had an unbelievable ball club and we were never able to do anything, we finished last. Disappointing there. Then I came here, better opportunity to at least go to the playoffs. There?s no doubt in my mind (the 2013 Blue Jays are) much better, way better (than the 2012 Marlins), we came with high expectations here, we haven?t been able to do anything, it?s disappointing because it?s unbelievable talent that we have here. But here we are into August, we?re in last place, and we expected to be on top of our division coming into spring training.
?We had a lot of opportunities to win a lot of ballgames and we just let it get away. That?s not going to get it done.?
Reyes is still playing with pain in his ankle, feeling it especially when he moves to his left in the field or tries to slow down on the basepaths. He doesn?t expect to be fully 100 per cent until next spring, after his ankle gets rest and rehab during the winter.
Despite that, he?s been productive and effective, and the promise of more from him in 2014 should excite the Blue Jays. But that alone won?t get this team over the hump.
?I don?t want to point at no one, me, everybody needs to step up and everybody needs to contribute,? said Reyes. ?This is a team game, everybody needs to contribute if we want to be good, it?s not only one, two or three guys, it?s everybody as a group. All the ball clubs that have been successful this year, they play as a team together and everybody contributes. That?s something we haven?t been able to do so far.?
The standings certainly show it.
For the rest of the story:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/davidi-fundamental-failures-plauging-blue-jays/