2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion

[ZBBM]

He's certainly playing his best yet offensively.  Don't know what the fancy stats say about the other side of the puck.

His CF is 51.7% right now, which is a touch higher than what he's posted the past few years (between 49.8%-50.8%). With that said his shots against, goals against, and expected goals against rates are fairly significantly worse than his norms. Granted, we're only talking about 4 (wild) games.

Thanks, and makes sense given we are binge-watching That 80s Show thus far.

I guess I wonder whether it is even possible to "tighten up the defense" given the way the offense is structured and the parity in the league today.  The tale of last night's game was that Dallas's big line was superb.  The only difference is that we had 2 big superb lines.

 

[Hobbes]

I have a feeling that Babcock has Marleau mentally slotted to be the left wing on the 1st line and is most likely to try that first when Nylander returns. With any luck Kapanen only slips down to the 3rd line when that experiment starts.

I actually prefer your lines, though, since I think Kapanen can develop into the perfect complement to the line, and there's a good history with that Marleau-Kadri pairing from last year.

Thanks!

I'm probably overthinking this, but I'm guessing Marleau with Matthews might be a Marleau-preservation thing. Playing with Kadri would be hard matching against top offensive lines. Playing with Matthews would net him their top checking units (and only a few teams have both in one line), and they'd invariably be focused on Matthews-Nylander. It's easier minutes playing offense in general.

That being said, when Matthews and Nylander get caught in their own zone, it's firewagon stuff.

Not sure I'm following the logic on that one. Chances are the left winger on Matthews' line is going to get a steady diet of going into OZ corners against a top pairing D (and also get double-teamed when the opposing center arrives) on any of those myriad dump & chase entries. That's going to take a big toll on his body over the course of a season compared to what he'd see as a 3rd line hard match winger where he's mostly covering the point or dipping down to help on the wall.

 

[Guilt Trip]

He's certainly playing his best yet offensively.  Don't know what the fancy stats say about the other side of the puck.

His CF is 51.7% right now, which is a touch higher than what he's posted the past few years (between 49.8%-50.8%). With that said his shots against, goals against, and expected goals against rates are fairly significantly worse than his norms. Granted, we're only talking about 4 (wild) games.

He's also paired with hainsey so I would think that would have some effect on numbers?

 

[cabber24]

Morgan Rielly is tied with Matthews in points? What?

He's certainly playing his best yet offensively.  Don't know what the fancy stats say about the other side of the puck.

The point man on that PP is going to rack up the points.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Thanks, and makes sense given we are binge-watching That 80s Show thus far.

I guess I wonder whether it is even possible to "tighten up the defense" given the way the offense is structured and the parity in the league today.  The tale of last night's game was that Dallas's big line was superb.  The only difference is that we had 2 big superb lines.

I can't imagine we're ever really going to move away from the fast pace, high event type of hockey. I think the easiest way to "tighten up the defence" though would be to focus on the teams breakout plays, which is of course something that's been talked about for a year now. Someone posted yesterday about how many failed breakouts attempts we've had via using the stretch pass through the first 3 games, and it was pretty absurd. If you cut those even in half you'll go a long way to limited the other teams zone time.

 

[herman]

Not sure I'm following the logic on that one. Chances are the left winger on Matthews' line is going to get a steady diet of going into OZ corners against a top pairing D (and also get double-teamed when the opposing center arrives) on any of those myriad dump & chase entries. That's going to take a big toll on his body over the course of a season compared to what he'd see as a 3rd line hard match winger where he's mostly covering the point or dipping down to help on the wall.

Hmm, you're probably right, as that's definitely how they played with Hyman.

 

[herman]

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/10/10/ken-hitchcock-on-the-toronto-maple-leafs-they-get-credit-for-how-fast-they-play-offensively-but-their-strength-is-how-fast-they-play-defensively-they-are-way-more-accomplished-on-the-200-foot-g/

Shining Babcock's shoes aside, Ken Hitchcock delivers some good coach's insight.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/10/10/ken-hitchcock-on-the-toronto-maple-leafs-they-get-credit-for-how-fast-they-play-offensively-but-their-strength-is-how-fast-they-play-defensively-they-are-way-more-accomplished-on-the-200-foot-g/

Shining Babcock's shoes aside, Ken Hitchcock delivers some good coach's insight.

He has an interesting suggestion on how to defend against a PP like the Leafs: essentially just give up defending the point/Rielly and play 4-on-4 down low. Makes sense. As good as Rielly is he's clearly the least dangerous offensive weapon out there, both in terms of pure talent and position on the ice. Generally speaking most PKs do keep all their defenders down low, but when the puck goes to the point one guy will usually go out to chase, and that spreads everyone out and opens up lanes.

 

[dappleganger]

He's certainly playing his best yet offensively.  Don't know what the fancy stats say about the other side of the puck.

His CF is 51.7% right now, which is a touch higher than what he's posted the past few years (between 49.8%-50.8%). With that said his shots against, goals against, and expected goals against rates are fairly significantly worse than his norms. Granted, we're only talking about 4 (wild) games.

Thanks, and makes sense given we are binge-watching That 80s Show thus far.

I guess I wonder whether it is even possible to "tighten up the defense" given the way the offense is structured and the parity in the league today.  The tale of last night's game was that Dallas's big line was superb.  The only difference is that we had 2 big superb lines.

For me, it's not so much tightening up the defense or improving the defensive system or players. For me, it's all about eliminating the turnovers/mistakes.

I think if this current d-core can eliminate the mistakes, they'll be just fine. That being said, maybe this combination of players are unable to do so.

 

[disco]

Happy Kap got moved up and is making the most of the contract dispute Good for him. Had to catch the last couple the day after on Game in Six. Man, JT and Auston are SCORCHIN' on the highlights. What a boon to have 1A and 1B at center for the next 7 years! A lot of great passes as well. The offensive explosion by these studs get us to the 3-1 start.

We'll get better at D/G. All teams are shaky there to start seasons now, the forwards are all chomping at the bit. Team defense is poor. Once the grind of the season hits it'll settle. Every point is valuable though. Winning the Atlantic means a much easier road than friggin' ATL2 vs ATL3. I'm sure that's the goal of the Bolts and Bruins as well.

 

[herman]

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/10/10/ken-hitchcock-on-the-toronto-maple-leafs-they-get-credit-for-how-fast-they-play-offensively-but-their-strength-is-how-fast-they-play-defensively-they-are-way-more-accomplished-on-the-200-foot-g/

Shining Babcock's shoes aside, Ken Hitchcock delivers some good coach's insight.

He has an interesting suggestion on how to defend against a PP like the Leafs: essentially just give up defending the point/Rielly and play 4-on-4 down low. Makes sense. As good as Rielly is he's clearly the least dangerous offensive weapon out there, both in terms of pure talent and position on the ice. Generally speaking most PKs do keep all their defenders down low, but when the puck goes to the point one guy will usually go out to chase, and that spreads everyone out and opens up lanes.

Another thing that Hitchcock outlines but doesn't say outright, is that there are different layers to assess: the system, the player's intention (adherence or deviation), the execution, the result. Hard for fans to see otherwise, but we are largely responding to results, whereas coaches' decisions are based on the underlying aspects. Adding further complexity is if a result went south due to execution, was it because of a physical lack, a skills-deficit, the opposing player just putting you in a no-win situation (e.g. blocking an Auston Matthews shot), or someone else in your 5-man unit dropping the ball?

In the past couple of seasons, Babcock was in development mode, and liberally sprinkled predictable structural adherence into the lineup (Komarov, Martin, Polak, Hainsey, Marleau, Hyman, Brown) to instill that foundation into the core. Towards the end of last season, we could see the fruits of that labour in the way Marner and Nylander and Matthews played off the puck. I think they could've turned the corner on some of those training wheels a bit earlier, but what's done is done.

 

[disco]

https://twitter.com/GMillerTSN/status/1049852835859492865
https://twitter.com/dalter/status/1049844148470239234

 

[herman]

https://twitter.com/jtbourne/status/1050086319571984384

Babcock: Hyman gets Matthews and Nylander the puck.
Fans: But his assists!
Babcock: Hyman gets Matthews and Nylander the puck.
Mike Kelly: Hyman has very few takeaways, so how effective is he? Look how many Matthews has.
Babcock: Hyman gets Matthews and Nylander the puck.
Fans: We want Johnsson!

Hyman beats an icing and gets Marner and Tavares the puck.
https://twitter.com/JeffVeillette/status/1049858930455793676

Fans: oooh...

 

[OldTimeHockey]

The F1/F2/F3 offensive zone forecheck is a tough one to really visualize on the ice.

Basically, F1, is your player that can get there first, no matter where they are on the ice, if they can get the puck first, they're your F1.

F1's job is to never push the defending player with the puck behind the net. You actually want to push them to the wing where F2 is supporting and waiting. Pushing them behind the net with the puck gives them an extra second to escape and the ability to use the net as a blocker.

F3's job is to wait in a high position and respond to the play as it develops. If the puck does go to the other side of the ice and F3 can get there first, F3 becomes F1, F1 may become F2 and F2 may become F3. Generally you want the 3 of them to rotate in a triangle. (That's the way I teach it to my girls).

The video in herman's post above shows exactly what F1/F2/F3 should look like when executed properly as I'm describing. Hyman forces the puck towards the corner(not behind the net), Marner supports as F2 and once F2 has control of the puck, F3 releases and attacks the net.

What's nice about the Tavares line is all 3 of them are fantastic F1's and show no reasons of being anything other than what we've seen. This creates a cycle of forechecking that's very tough to defend against.

 

[princedpw]

The F1/F2/F3 offensive zone forecheck is a tough one to really visualize on the ice.

Basically, F1, is your player that can get there first, no matter where they are on the ice, if they can get the puck first, they're your F1.

F1's job is to never push the defending player with the puck behind the net. You actually want to push them to the wing where F2 is supporting and waiting. Pushing them behind the net with the puck gives them an extra second to escape and the ability to use the net as a blocker.

F3's job is to wait in a high position and respond to the play as it develops. If the puck does go to the other side of the ice and F3 can get there first, F3 becomes F1, F1 may become F2 and F2 may become F3. Generally you want the 3 of them to rotate in a triangle. (That's the way I teach it to my girls).

The video in herman's post above shows exactly what F1/F2/F3 should look like when executed properly as I'm describing. Hyman forces the puck towards the corner(not behind the net), Marner supports as F2 and once F2 has control of the puck, F3 releases and attacks the net.

What's nice about the Tavares line is all 3 of them are fantastic F1's and show no reasons of being anything other than what we've seen. This creates a cycle of forechecking that's very tough to defend against.

I did not know this about forcing the puck to the corner. Neat.

 

[mr grieves]

Centres (duh): Matthews, Tavares, Kadri, Gauthier, Lindholm
Primary wingers: Nylander, Marner
GwotP: Marleau, Hyman, Brown, Johnsson, Kapanen*, Ennis

* Kapanen is arguably a primary, but Babcock wants him to be a GwotP heavy forechecker; with his speed, I'd say that's not a bad call.

So what will happen when Nylander returns? I'd like to try this:

Kapanen - Matthews - Nylander
Hyman - Tavares - Marner
Marleau - Kadri - Brown
Johnsson/Lindholm - Lindholm/Gauthier - Leivo

I'd like to see Babcock give up on the checking/match-up line and just roll trios that have talent enough to score and enough defensive acumen not get burned going the other way.

So gimme:

Hyman - Tavares - Marner (it's working so far, Hyman's speed and ability to disrupt defensemen is all Tavares and Marner seem to need to work)

Marleau - Matthews - Kapanen (Mathews can do a lot on his own, including (this season) get through the NZ and into the OZ; Kapanen has skill and speed enough to do that, plus the wheels to get to and hands to recover the puck; and Marleau's a fine secondary scoring threat and responsible winger)

Johnsson/Lindholm - Kadri - Nylander (LW options, at least when/if Johnsson gets going, are good without the puck and defensively responsible, while both Kadri and Nylander can enter the zone, pass, and shoot -- a good rush combo)

And a 4th line that can do what the one we had in Dallas did in the 3rd period -- keep it a cycle going in the offensive zone and eat time. Between Lindholm (positionally sound), Ennis, Brown (quick, tenacious on the puck, though not great hands), Gauthier and Leivo (big bodies who showed they could sustain pressure), the Leafs have the players to do that.

 

[ZBBM]

The F1/F2/F3 offensive zone forecheck is a tough one to really visualize on the ice.

Basically, F1, is your player that can get there first, no matter where they are on the ice, if they can get the puck first, they're your F1.

F1's job is to never push the defending player with the puck behind the net. You actually want to push them to the wing where F2 is supporting and waiting. Pushing them behind the net with the puck gives them an extra second to escape and the ability to use the net as a blocker.

F3's job is to wait in a high position and respond to the play as it develops. If the puck does go to the other side of the ice and F3 can get there first, F3 becomes F1, F1 may become F2 and F2 may become F3. Generally you want the 3 of them to rotate in a triangle. (That's the way I teach it to my girls).

The video in herman's post above shows exactly what F1/F2/F3 should look like when executed properly as I'm describing. Hyman forces the puck towards the corner(not behind the net), Marner supports as F2 and once F2 has control of the puck, F3 releases and attacks the net.

What's nice about the Tavares line is all 3 of them are fantastic F1's and show no reasons of being anything other than what we've seen. This creates a cycle of forechecking that's very tough to defend against.

I did not know this about forcing the puck to the corner. Neat.

Me neither.  Good stuff you mentors!

 

[ZBBM]

Centres (duh): Matthews, Tavares, Kadri, Gauthier, Lindholm
Primary wingers: Nylander, Marner
GwotP: Marleau, Hyman, Brown, Johnsson, Kapanen*, Ennis

* Kapanen is arguably a primary, but Babcock wants him to be a GwotP heavy forechecker; with his speed, I'd say that's not a bad call.

So what will happen when Nylander returns? I'd like to try this:

Kapanen - Matthews - Nylander
Hyman - Tavares - Marner
Marleau - Kadri - Brown
Johnsson/Lindholm - Lindholm/Gauthier - Leivo

I'd like to see Babcock give up on the checking/match-up line and just roll trios that have talent enough to score and enough defensive acumen not get burned going the other way.

So gimme:

Hyman - Tavares - Marner (it's working so far, Hyman's speed and ability to disrupt defensemen is all Tavares and Marner seem to need to work)

Marleau - Matthews - Kapanen (Mathews can do a lot on his own, including (this season) get through the NZ and into the OZ; Kapanen has skill and speed enough to do that, plus the wheels to get to and hands to recover the puck; and Marleau's a fine secondary scoring threat and responsible winger)

Johnsson/Lindholm - Kadri - Nylander (LW options, at least when/if Johnsson gets going, are good without the puck and defensively responsible, while both Kadri and Nylander can enter the zone, pass, and shoot -- a good rush combo)

And a 4th line that can do what the one we had in Dallas did in the 3rd period -- keep it a cycle going in the offensive zone and eat time. Between Lindholm (positionally sound), Ennis, Brown (quick, tenacious on the puck, though not great hands), Gauthier and Leivo (big bodies who showed they could sustain pressure), the Leafs have the players to do that.

I like this.  My only quibble is I don't know if the Goat Line can do what they did so well last night consistently.  They sure did calm the waters in the 3rd ... it was very nice to see (and feel).

 

[Bill_Berg]

The F1/F2/F3 offensive zone forecheck is a tough one to really visualize on the ice.

Basically, F1, is your player that can get there first, no matter where they are on the ice, if they can get the puck first, they're your F1.

F1's job is to never push the defending player with the puck behind the net. You actually want to push them to the wing where F2 is supporting and waiting. Pushing them behind the net with the puck gives them an extra second to escape and the ability to use the net as a blocker.

F3's job is to wait in a high position and respond to the play as it develops. If the puck does go to the other side of the ice and F3 can get there first, F3 becomes F1, F1 may become F2 and F2 may become F3. Generally you want the 3 of them to rotate in a triangle. (That's the way I teach it to my girls).

The video in herman's post above shows exactly what F1/F2/F3 should look like when executed properly as I'm describing. Hyman forces the puck towards the corner(not behind the net), Marner supports as F2 and once F2 has control of the puck, F3 releases and attacks the net.

What's nice about the Tavares line is all 3 of them are fantastic F1's and show no reasons of being anything other than what we've seen. This creates a cycle of forechecking that's very tough to defend against.

I did not know this about forcing the puck to the corner. Neat.

Me neither.  Good stuff you mentors!

Yet once you read it, it makes perfect sense and you can see the Leafs doing it well.  And people don't like the dump and chase.

 

[herman]

The F1/F2/F3 offensive zone forecheck is a tough one to really visualize on the ice.

Basically, F1, is your player that can get there first, no matter where they are on the ice, if they can get the puck first, they're your F1.

F1's job is to never push the defending player with the puck behind the net. You actually want to push them to the wing where F2 is supporting and waiting. Pushing them behind the net with the puck gives them an extra second to escape and the ability to use the net as a blocker.

F3's job is to wait in a high position and respond to the play as it develops. If the puck does go to the other side of the ice and F3 can get there first, F3 becomes F1, F1 may become F2 and F2 may become F3. Generally you want the 3 of them to rotate in a triangle. (That's the way I teach it to my girls).

The video in herman's post above shows exactly what F1/F2/F3 should look like when executed properly as I'm describing. Hyman forces the puck towards the corner(not behind the net), Marner supports as F2 and once F2 has control of the puck, F3 releases and attacks the net.

What's nice about the Tavares line is all 3 of them are fantastic F1's and show no reasons of being anything other than what we've seen. This creates a cycle of forechecking that's very tough to defend against.

Bingo! The tricky part to being an F1 is that it is inglorious work, hella hard, and more often than not, resultless.  Like you say, once the defense is able to swing behind the net, your forecheck is essentially nullified thanks to the net being used as a free pick.

Hyman flushing the play towards pickpockets like our 3 kids has been borderline unfair. You could see Matthews' struggle in games 1-3 missing both Nylander (transition through NZ) and Hyman (establishing cycle).