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2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion

Guilt Trip said:
Zee said:
Leafs fans that complain about Gardiner really have no idea how bad the Leafs defense would be without him in the lineup.  Having Jake out of this current group and trying to plug in a Marincin or Holl or something like Rosen would be a disaster waiting to happen.
We complain because from a pure defensive view he's not very good. Too many mistakes. We're not asking for a plug to take his spot. We need an upgrade in his spot because he's not good enough defensively to get the minutes he does. We all know that the Leafs aren't going to pay him whatever he'll get on the open market either so he becomes an own rental or we move him at the deadline.
Once again, it's not just Gardiner out there. He has a partner who isn't good enough to be 2nd pair and might just be a replacement level player on defense.  I could see Gardiner flourishing on another team when he's paired with someone good.

Gardiner won't be back next year  so just enjoy his offense and hope he plays well in the playoffs because next season it's a whole new ball game on the back end. Hopefully Dermott can take those Gardiner minutes, but they'll need upgrades on the right side to see any substantial overall improvement.
 
Zee said:
Once again, it's not just Gardiner out there. He has a partner who isn't good enough to be 2nd pair and might just be a replacement level player on defense.

And for a team that, in general, does a piss poor job of providing support for their defensemen most nights. A lot of Gardiner's poor plays come in situations where he doesn't have a good, easy outlet for the puck. If the team played a more responsible style - as in, if a forward or two stayed in the defensive zone when the puck was there, instead of everyone blowing the zone for a stretch pass, or one of them coming down deeper into the defensive zone to help alleviate the pressure from the opposition's forecheck - you'd see a lot of Gardiner's issues disappear. And this isn't a Gardiner specific issue. This is something that's true for almost every blue liner in the league.
 
bustaheims said:
Zee said:
Once again, it's not just Gardiner out there. He has a partner who isn't good enough to be 2nd pair and might just be a replacement level player on defense.

And for a team that, in general, does a piss poor job of providing support for their defensemen most nights. A lot of Gardiner's poor plays come in situations where he doesn't have a good, easy outlet for the puck. If the team played a more responsible style - as in, if a forward or two stayed in the defensive zone when the puck was there, instead of everyone blowing the zone for a stretch pass, or one of them coming down deeper into the defensive zone to help alleviate the pressure from the opposition's forecheck - you'd see a lot of Gardiner's issues disappear. And this isn't a Gardiner specific issue. This is something that's true for almost every blue liner in the league.
People that think subtracting Gardiner off the Leafs immediately improves the defense are misguided. The major issue with the defense is the entire right side, it's why opposition teams target that side again and again.
 
I don't know if I'm going to do this justice, but here's my take: when a forward makes a high-skill play in the offensive zone, and the pass gets deflected, or hits a skate, or whatever, nobody really bats an eyelid. The play turns into backcheck, and the game continues without a great deal of commentary.

When a defenceman makes a high-skill play to maintain possession via skating the puck out, or a transition pass under pressure, etc, and it fails, and ends up as a shot on goal or a chance to score, the player is pilloried. But for the other 19 out of 20 times it's done successfully, it translates into possession, potentially a rush up ice, and all those good things. Gardiner makes the high skill play happen routinely enough that it's worth the tradeoff for the occasional giveaway, because the net effect is overwhelmingly positive. It's the nature of the position that makes mistakes overly visible, and unrepresentative of the overall positives.

Sure, we could have him change his game to an "off the glass and out" style, and he'd rarely be blamed directly for chances against, but we'd also be giving up a huge amount of offence by turning the puck over outside the zone consistently. 

Like it or not, if Gards makes it to free agency, someone is going to open their wallet, big time.
 
bustaheims said:
Zee said:
Once again, it's not just Gardiner out there. He has a partner who isn't good enough to be 2nd pair and might just be a replacement level player on defense.

And for a team that, in general, does a piss poor job of providing support for their defensemen most nights. A lot of Gardiner's poor plays come in situations where he doesn't have a good, easy outlet for the puck. If the team played a more responsible style - as in, if a forward or two stayed in the defensive zone when the puck was there, instead of everyone blowing the zone for a stretch pass, or one of them coming down deeper into the defensive zone to help alleviate the pressure from the opposition's forecheck - you'd see a lot of Gardiner's issues disappear. And this isn't a Gardiner specific issue. This is something that's true for almost every blue liner in the league.

Fair enough, but they utilize the stretch pass play precisely because Rielly and Gardiner have the skill to pull it off routinely.
 
Frycer14 said:
I don't know if I'm going to do this justice, but here's my take: when a forward makes a high-skill play in the offensive zone, and the pass gets deflected, or hits a skate, or whatever, nobody really bats an eyelid. The play turns into backcheck, and the game continues without a great deal of commentary.

When a defenceman makes a high-skill play to maintain possession via skating the puck out, or a transition pass under pressure, etc, and it fails, and ends up as a shot on goal or a chance to score, the player is pilloried. But for the other 19 out of 20 times it's done successfully, it translates into possession, potentially a rush up ice, and all those good things. Gardiner makes the high skill play happen routinely enough that it's worth the tradeoff for the occasional giveaway, because the net effect is overwhelmingly positive. It's the nature of the position that makes mistakes overly visible, and unrepresentative of the overall positives.

Sure, we could have him change his game to an "off the glass and out" style, and he'd rarely be blamed directly for chances against, but we'd also be giving up a huge amount of offence by turning the puck over outside the zone consistently. 

I'd be interested to find out how often those great plays lead to leaf goals and how often his screw ups lead to goals against.
 
Gardiner's Instagram full of hate and vitriol after last night from the same great "fans" who think it's productive to boo your own players on the ice. No wonder we can't have nice things, our fan base can be so clueless at times.
 
Arn said:
Yeah. But what's his +/-

You know I actually thought it was really good because I know Gardiner's is super high, but he's only a +1. Gardiner's a +18. They've been defence partners literally every game this season.

edit: No I'm not all of a sudden saying +/- is a great stat
 
I don't think Zaitsev or Gardiner for that matter are as bad as people say.  We're all human.  Gardiner did look bad on that one goal but so what.  He's a good player.  There is always the concern with him that in the playoffs he will choke but we will see.  Zaitsev seems like a smooth skater and a decent passer to me.  I guess with him he just didn't pan out the way they wanted him to and now he's grossly overpaid.  But he's not a "bad" player IMO.  He's just not playing up to his contract value.  If he's the worst contract we've got we're doing well IMO.  A lot of teams have a few albatross contracts on the books I am sure.
 
sickbeast said:
I don't think Zaitsev or Gardiner for that matter are as bad as people say.  We're all human.  Gardiner did look bad on that one goal but so what.  He's a good player.  There is always the concern with him that in the playoffs he will choke but we will see.  Zaitsev seems like a smooth skater and a decent passer to me.  I guess with him he just didn't pan out the way they wanted him to and now he's grossly overpaid.  But he's not a "bad" player IMO.  He's just not playing up to his contract value.  If he's the worst contract we've got we're doing well IMO.  A lot of teams have a few albatross contracts on the books I am sure.

The problem is with our cap structure we really can't afford an albatross contract as much as some teams can. We've also got Marleau on the books for another year and regardless of great of a person he is he's nowhere near a $6.25mil player anymore. So those two combined are going to take up $10.75mil of cap space next season and they're both average to below-average players. Without one of those two moving our defence is only going to get worse next season, there's really no doubt about that. Dubas really has his plate full this offseason with trying to maneuver around that situation and trying to re-sign Matthews and Marner too
 
Babcock was mixing things up in the 3rd and Gardiner with Ozhiganov looked a lot better than with Zaitsev (of course it's not even a small sample size but still)  The Zaitsev problem will be with us until he either a) plays better or b) is off this roster.  Is Zaitsev even good enough to be a 3rd pair dman?  I'm not so sure, but at his contract, he can't be a 3rd pair guy so we're screwed.
 
Zee said:
Babcock was mixing things up in the 3rd and Gardiner with Ozhiganov looked a lot better than with Zaitsev (of course it's not even a small sample size but still)  The Zaitsev problem will be with us until he either a) plays better or b) is off this roster.  Is Zaitsev even good enough to be a 3rd pair dman?  I'm not so sure, but at his contract, he can't be a 3rd pair guy so we're screwed.
Well he can if you have a Dermott type contract who can play up. Other then that, no. Like Jake, I think he's a decent defender but not good enough for this team to have a chance. And to be fair to Gardiner, he's been pretty bad lately, I think Babs should try both with other D men. Why not put him with Hainsey, Oz for a bit. Hell put Reilly on the right side. You never know. We do know that the chemistry just isn't there with 22 and 51 so Babs needs to stop beating that dead horse. It could change their games around. Maybe it's a Holl that works with Gardiner, who knows? I would be trying every combo and not for a shift or 2 to see what happens.
 
Guilt Trip said:
Zee said:
Babcock was mixing things up in the 3rd and Gardiner with Ozhiganov looked a lot better than with Zaitsev (of course it's not even a small sample size but still)  The Zaitsev problem will be with us until he either a) plays better or b) is off this roster.  Is Zaitsev even good enough to be a 3rd pair dman?  I'm not so sure, but at his contract, he can't be a 3rd pair guy so we're screwed.
Well he can if you have a Dermott type contract who can play up. Other then that, no. Like Jake, I think he's a decent defender but not good enough for this team to have a chance. And to be fair to Gardiner, he's been pretty bad lately, I think Babs should try both with other D men. Why not put him with Hainsey, Oz for a bit. Hell put Reilly on the right side. You never know. We do know that the chemistry just isn't there with 22 and 51 so Babs needs to stop beating that dead horse. It could change their games around. Maybe it's a Holl that works with Gardiner, who knows? I would be trying every combo and not for a shift or 2 to see what happens.

I don't think Holl has gotten a fair shot at all.  Try the Minnesota connection for a while and see if it's workable.
 
Zee said:
Guilt Trip said:
Zee said:
Babcock was mixing things up in the 3rd and Gardiner with Ozhiganov looked a lot better than with Zaitsev (of course it's not even a small sample size but still)  The Zaitsev problem will be with us until he either a) plays better or b) is off this roster.  Is Zaitsev even good enough to be a 3rd pair dman?  I'm not so sure, but at his contract, he can't be a 3rd pair guy so we're screwed.
Well he can if you have a Dermott type contract who can play up. Other then that, no. Like Jake, I think he's a decent defender but not good enough for this team to have a chance. And to be fair to Gardiner, he's been pretty bad lately, I think Babs should try both with other D men. Why not put him with Hainsey, Oz for a bit. Hell put Reilly on the right side. You never know. We do know that the chemistry just isn't there with 22 and 51 so Babs needs to stop beating that dead horse. It could change their games around. Maybe it's a Holl that works with Gardiner, who knows? I would be trying every combo and not for a shift or 2 to see what happens.

I don't think Holl has gotten a fair shot at all.  Try the Minnesota connection for a while and see if it's workable.
Totally agree with that. Why even have him here if you arent going to play him. Clearly though Babs needs to change it up to try and help Gardiner and Zaitsev as well as everyone else.
 
https://twitter.com/kristen_shilton/status/1085568648599752705

Hyman back with Matthews and Nylander for (I believe) the first time this season.

I reaaaalllly thought they might juggle the 2nd and 3rd defence pairings though. Safe to say nothing can change those at this point.
 
CarltonTheBear said:
https://twitter.com/kristen_shilton/status/1085568648599752705

Hyman back with Matthews and Nylander for (I believe) the first time this season.

I reaaaalllly thought they might juggle the 2nd and 3rd defence pairings though. Safe to say nothing can change those at this point.

I'd even try Marincin over Zaitsev at this point.
 

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