2022-23 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion

[CarltonTheBear]

MLHS has a column up that kind of trashes Sandin, comparing him to Dermott.  He has tailed off lately, but earlier in the year he looked fine with Liljegren.  That said, if his weakness is handling a hard forecheck (and I called him out on just that the last game against Boston) then they need to go into the playoffs where he's the #7 guy.

Or I suppose they could include him in a package.  But I really hope they find a way to keep him.  I think he's got real offensive potential, and they sure as hell need more of that from the blueline.

Some people might scoff at this, but I get a lot of Jake Gardiner vibes from Sandin (keep in mind that's coming from someone who largely had positive things to say about Gardiner as a Leaf). Offensively I think they shine more in their transitional play and in the neutral zone as opposed to defencemen who are more active in the offensive zone specifically. They have similar weaknesses in the defensive zone under pressure but thankfully those issues are minimized a bit because they simply spend less time there than most defenceman.

The biggest difference though is their speed. Gardiner was arguably the best skater on the team during his time here (at least until his back issues flared up) while Sandin's skating of course leaves a lot to be desired. And I think that's unfortunately going to a) hold him back from fully unlocking that offensive potential you speak of and b) put more of a spotlight on his defensive weakness since he can't just skate himself out of trouble when it comes up.

That's not to say "Sandin is horrible and doesn't have a promising NHL future ahead of him", but long-term it does make me question where his ultimate upside is as a Leaf, especially with Rielly already locked into the 1LD spot long-term. I see Sandin almost stuck on the 3rd pair (where he'll hopefully continue to put up excellent results and eventually more points) because the team will always try to fill the 2LD spot with someone with a little more defensive ability. It's pretty telling that the Leafs are still playing a 39-year old Mark Giordano ahead of him in that spot.

If the team sees Sandin in a similar way then a) that's really not a bad thing, nobody should complain about having a great 3rd pairing defenceman but also b) makes Sandin at least a little bit expendable if it means improving parts of the team higher on the depth chart. For example, I don't see this actually happening but I wouldn't be opposed at all if Sandin was a big part in a Jakob Chychrun trade.

 

[Highlander]

What is Damien Cox smoking, time to fire Keefe and bring in Boudreau. What the F.
Why not just hire Randy again?

 

[hobarth]

The entire bottom six has generally struggled to produce so far in 2023. As a whole, by my count, in the 17 games this calendar year, they have 10 even-strength goals, and Pierre Engvall has four of them. Pontus Holmberg has two, Zach Aston-Reese has two, Dryden Hunt has one, and Joey Anderson has one. Alex Kerfoot has one goal this year, but it was on the power play ? again, the ?versatility? the organization extols about him is a load of hot air. He is not versatile if he moves down the lineup and doesn?t do much of anything.

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2023/02/14/toronto-maple-leafs-notebook-race-for-home-ice/

Last week I believe Marchand was having a bit of a laugh with the press about TO's lack of depth due to so much $s going to so few, he's right of course, this wasn't something Dubie could control because of Covid, fair enough. Bringing in more players who's only virtue is defense would be a mistake, stop TO's top 4 players and there's no one to help except Bunting and Engvall, Bunting is very playing with superior players reliant.

Simply put, TO needs more talent, offensive talent, more Lubushkins', ZARs, Hunts is a whole lot of noise, not good noise, it's time for Dubie to stop hoping for some sort of miracle and really improve the team rather than improve the team's defensive depth.     

 

[ZBBM]

MLHS has a column up that kind of trashes Sandin, comparing him to Dermott.  He has tailed off lately, but earlier in the year he looked fine with Liljegren.  That said, if his weakness is handling a hard forecheck (and I called him out on just that the last game against Boston) then they need to go into the playoffs where he's the #7 guy.

Or I suppose they could include him in a package.  But I really hope they find a way to keep him.  I think he's got real offensive potential, and they sure as hell need more of that from the blueline.

Some people might scoff at this, but I get a lot of Jake Gardiner vibes from Sandin (keep in mind that's coming from someone who largely had positive things to say about Gardiner as a Leaf). Offensively I think they shine more in their transitional play and in the neutral zone as opposed to defencemen who are more active in the offensive zone specifically. They have similar weaknesses in the defensive zone under pressure but thankfully those issues are minimized a bit because they simply spend less time there than most defenceman.

The biggest difference though is their speed. Gardiner was arguably the best skater on the team during his time here (at least until his back issues flared up) while Sandin's skating of course leaves a lot to be desired. And I think that's unfortunately going to a) hold him back from fully unlocking that offensive potential you speak of and b) put more of a spotlight on his defensive weakness since he can't just skate himself out of trouble when it comes up.

That's not to say "Sandin is horrible and doesn't have a promising NHL future ahead of him", but long-term it does make me question where his ultimate upside is as a Leaf, especially with Rielly already locked into the 1LD spot long-term. I see Sandin almost stuck on the 3rd pair (where he'll hopefully continue to put up excellent results and eventually more points) because the team will always try to fill the 2LD spot with someone with a little more defensive ability. It's pretty telling that the Leafs are still playing a 39-year old Mark Giordano ahead of him in that spot.

If the team sees Sandin in a similar way then a) that's really not a bad thing, nobody should complain about having a great 3rd pairing defenceman but also b) makes Sandin at least a little bit expendable if it means improving parts of the team higher on the depth chart. For example, I don't see this actually happening but I wouldn't be opposed at all if Sandin was a big part in a Jakob Chychrun trade.

This is solid CTB.  Good analysis and good analogy to Gardiner.

I frankly was surprised the PP didn't do better when he had a chance to QB the PP.  He can walk the line, and while he doesn't have a cannon he gets his shots through.  (Liljegren should get more looks there too, BTW.)

But if he has to go to return a Chychrun I'll swallow my tears and live with it.

 

[Zee]

MLHS has a column up that kind of trashes Sandin, comparing him to Dermott.  He has tailed off lately, but earlier in the year he looked fine with Liljegren.  That said, if his weakness is handling a hard forecheck (and I called him out on just that the last game against Boston) then they need to go into the playoffs where he's the #7 guy.

Or I suppose they could include him in a package.  But I really hope they find a way to keep him.  I think he's got real offensive potential, and they sure as hell need more of that from the blueline.

Some people might scoff at this, but I get a lot of Jake Gardiner vibes from Sandin (keep in mind that's coming from someone who largely had positive things to say about Gardiner as a Leaf). Offensively I think they shine more in their transitional play and in the neutral zone as opposed to defencemen who are more active in the offensive zone specifically. They have similar weaknesses in the defensive zone under pressure but thankfully those issues are minimized a bit because they simply spend less time there than most defenceman.

The biggest difference though is their speed. Gardiner was arguably the best skater on the team during his time here (at least until his back issues flared up) while Sandin's skating of course leaves a lot to be desired. And I think that's unfortunately going to a) hold him back from fully unlocking that offensive potential you speak of and b) put more of a spotlight on his defensive weakness since he can't just skate himself out of trouble when it comes up.

That's not to say "Sandin is horrible and doesn't have a promising NHL future ahead of him", but long-term it does make me question where his ultimate upside is as a Leaf, especially with Rielly already locked into the 1LD spot long-term. I see Sandin almost stuck on the 3rd pair (where he'll hopefully continue to put up excellent results and eventually more points) because the team will always try to fill the 2LD spot with someone with a little more defensive ability. It's pretty telling that the Leafs are still playing a 39-year old Mark Giordano ahead of him in that spot.

If the team sees Sandin in a similar way then a) that's really not a bad thing, nobody should complain about having a great 3rd pairing defenceman but also b) makes Sandin at least a little bit expendable if it means improving parts of the team higher on the depth chart. For example, I don't see this actually happening but I wouldn't be opposed at all if Sandin was a big part in a Jakob Chychrun trade.

This is solid CTB.  Good analysis and good analogy to Gardiner.

I frankly was surprised the PP didn't do better when he had a chance to QB the PP.  He can walk the line, and while he doesn't have a cannon he gets his shots through.  (Liljegren should get more looks there too, BTW.)

But if he has to go to return a Chychrun I'll swallow my tears and live with it.

The good news is the Leafs are on a west coast trip during the trade deadline so Chychrun and Meier don't have far to travel to join up with their new team.

 

[Frank E]

https://twitter.com/TSNRyanRishaug/status/1625571288373940224

Is this newsworthy?

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Is this newsworthy?

Not really. His 3rd time on waivers, and probably his 3rd time clearing waivers. I imagine he'll stay on the roster like he did after the other 2 times and only be assigned to the Marlies if they need the cap/roster space around the deadline.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

https://twitter.com/markhmasters/status/1625546515065323551

Matthews looks like he'll be returning tomorrow. Holl comes out of the line-up to give Timmins a game.

 

[bustaheims]

Is this newsworthy?

Not really. His 3rd time on waivers, and probably his 3rd time clearing waivers. I imagine he'll stay on the roster like he did after the other 2 times and only be assigned to the Marlies if they need the cap/roster space around the deadline.

Yeah. Just gives the team a little more flexibility, but, under the safe assumption he goes unclaimed, it doesn't do more than that.

 

[Frank E]

Is this newsworthy?

Not really. His 3rd time on waivers, and probably his 3rd time clearing waivers. I imagine he'll stay on the roster like he did after the other 2 times and only be assigned to the Marlies if they need the cap/roster space around the deadline.

Yeah. Just gives the team a little more flexibility, but, under the safe assumption he goes unclaimed, it doesn't do more than that.

Thanks boys...I just thought that at this point of the season when things can get a little more cantankerous, he's a pretty cheap addition for some definite toughness in the lineup of a team that might not want Trouba taking fights.

 

[Frank E]

https://twitter.com/strombone1/status/1625582023946432512


Seriously, Pierre?

 

[Highlander]

just read this at the Star sports site comments section, had to laugh so I copied and paste;

The 2023-2024 Leaf third sweater design has changed to better reflect post-1967 results. It will depict the Titanic towing the Hindenburg into the Bermuda Triangle.

 

[groundskeeper willie]

https://twitter.com/strombone1/status/1625582023946432512


Seriously, Pierre?

I made the mistake of clicking the link. I don't use Twitter and never go to the site, but below the tweet in the link it was nothing but Elon Musk tweets getting promoted. That guy is really desperate, isn't he?

 

[dekedastardly]

What is Damien Cox smoking, time to fire Keefe and bring in Boudreau. What the F.
Why not just hire Randy again?

I saw this too, and I hadn't seen Damien Cox's name in a long, long time. I honestly thought he was done as a reporter...? He definitely should be after writing a piece like this.

 

[Bender]

https://twitter.com/tsn1050radio/status/1625533978630406159?s=21&t=iD3UgPzt05t21PZ1dipaEg

 

[Frank E]

https://twitter.com/FriedgeHNIC/status/1625933471725113344

 

[Redleaf]

I really hope Dubas does something significant in the next two weeks to alter the direction of this team come playoff time.

Dubas is a smart hockey executive. At what point does he realize the limited number of kicks at the can he has left with this high end group of players.

I will be sorely disappointed if we don?t see the biggest push we?ve seen under his tenure in order to do whatever it takes to actually win in the playoffs. The time to stockpile picks and prospects is out the window. He needs to trade whatever he can for a legitimate star player or group of players, either on the backend or upfront to push this team that final step forward. Just shuffling around the deck chairs like he has the past bunch of trade deadlines hasn?t moved the needle at all. I would assume he realizes this and that this year is the year we see some adaptation to the notion that he can't just tinker along the fringes and expect better results. Particularly in the division the Leafs are in.

Come the deadline in March, if this is basically the same team with some minor tweaks heading to face off against the Lightning in the 1st round, I'll have been sadly misjudging his abilities to eventually ice a playoff winning team.

 

[ZBBM]

I really hope Dubas does something significant in the next two weeks to alter the direction of this team come playoff time.

Dubas is a smart hockey executive. At what point does he realize the limited number of kicks at the can he has left with this high end group of players.

I will be sorely disappointed if we don?t see the biggest push we?ve seen under his tenure in order to do whatever it takes to actually win in the playoffs. The time to stockpile picks and prospects is out the window. He needs to trade whatever he can for a legitimate star player or group of players, either on the backend or upfront to push this team that final step forward. Just shuffling around the deck chairs like he has the past bunch of trade deadlines hasn?t moved the needle at all. I would assume he realizes this and that this year is the year we see some adaptation to the notion that he can't just tinker along the fringes and expect better results. Particularly in the division the Leafs are in.

Come the deadline in March, if this is basically the same team with some minor tweaks heading to face off against the Lightning in the 1st round, I'll have been sadly misjudging his abilities to eventually ice a playoff winning team.

I am very susceptible to this argument, but despite the well-known need for a top 6 left winger and better bottom 6 players, maybe the two pressure points are goaltending and coaching. Dubas made the best play he had available this past summer, so if Samsonov/Murray don't get it done in R1 this year I'm not sure what alternatives he could have pursued.  But I think there is a case to be made that Keefe has been outcoached in the playoffs so far, and with razor-thin margins for error that could be a difference maker.  To me, GMs sometimes have to be ruthless to win it all.  Trotz was available, had the track record of getting a perennial also-ran all the way to the Cup  ... seems like a match made in heaven.  But of course Keefe is Dubas's guy.

So I guess what I'm groping toward here is that just changing the skaters may not be enough.

 

[Arn]

I really hope Dubas does something significant in the next two weeks to alter the direction of this team come playoff time.

Dubas is a smart hockey executive. At what point does he realize the limited number of kicks at the can he has left with this high end group of players.

I will be sorely disappointed if we don?t see the biggest push we?ve seen under his tenure in order to do whatever it takes to actually win in the playoffs. The time to stockpile picks and prospects is out the window. He needs to trade whatever he can for a legitimate star player or group of players, either on the backend or upfront to push this team that final step forward. Just shuffling around the deck chairs like he has the past bunch of trade deadlines hasn?t moved the needle at all. I would assume he realizes this and that this year is the year we see some adaptation to the notion that he can't just tinker along the fringes and expect better results. Particularly in the division the Leafs are in.

Come the deadline in March, if this is basically the same team with some minor tweaks heading to face off against the Lightning in the 1st round, I'll have been sadly misjudging his abilities to eventually ice a playoff winning team.

I am very susceptible to this argument, but despite the well-known need for a top 6 left winger and better bottom 6 players, maybe the two pressure points are goaltending and coaching. Dubas made the best play he had available this past summer, so if Samsonov/Murray don't get it done in R1 this year I'm not sure what alternatives he could have pursued. 
But I think there is a case to be made that Keefe has been outcoached in the playoffs so far, and with razor-thin margins for error that could be a difference maker.  To me, GMs sometimes have to be ruthless to win it all.  Trotz was available, had the track record of getting a perennial also-ran all the way to the Cup  ... seems like a match made in heaven.  But of course Keefe is Dubas's guy.

So I guess what I'm groping toward here is that just changing the skaters may not be enough.

I think I agree with this. I think Dubas deserves one more choice of coach before his job should be under threat.

In saying that, I also feel Keefe probably deserves one more playoffs to see if he has learnt/improved from prior experience.

 

[dappleganger]

Kind of interesting. The pairing of Liljegren-Sandin are second in the NHL in expected goals for %: