AHL to impose new Fighting Rules

[bustaheims]

The same is not true in hockey. Fighting isn't integral to the sport. You can still have hockey without fighting. Mike Babcock, who we all like having as our coach, has led the way in showing us that the arguments for it's utility/necessity are largely bogus. There's really no credible way to argue that it wouldn't work on a league-wide scale with a rule similar to how baseball/basketball deal with fighting.

Yeah. I mean, fighting largely disappears in the playoffs, and I think most of us would agree that playoff hockey is generally more entertaining than regular season hockey. The same is true of all the international tournaments - the lack of fighting certainly doesn't hurt the quality of the games between the top teams.

And, let's be clear here - fighting isn't part of hockey. It's really only a part of North American hockey. Outside of a low level of fighting in the KHL, the rest of the world manages to play the sport without players dropping the gloves and punching each other. And, really, over the past couple years, the amount of fights in the NHL has been dropping, and, until there are situations like this - where leagues introduce new rules around fighting, CTE lawsuits, etc. - no one seems to care. If fighting disappeared naturally, it would take a lot longer than people want to believe for its absence to be noticed. If it were truly a part of the game, fans would have been up in arms about the way it's already disappearing.

 

[TBLeafer]

It's become so unpopular that fans didn't want John Scott anywhere near last season's All Star game.

Oh wait...

 

[Bates]

Lacrosse

So Pat Maroon is a buffoon. I can think of no other contact team sport where fighting is even remotely tolerated. Bare-knuckle fighting by professional athletes is a ridiculous concept.

I don't think the rules went far enough. Given how few players actually hit 10 fights in a year, it's going to have very little impact. The rule against staged fights is good though.

 

[Kin]

It's become so unpopular that fans didn't want John Scott anywhere near last season's All Star game.

Oh wait...

There are a lot of reasons Scott got elected to the All-Star game, none of them are because fighting is super-popular.

It's like you're allergic to an intellectually honest conversation.

 

[TBLeafer]

It's become so unpopular that fans didn't want John Scott anywhere near last season's All Star game.

Oh wait...

There are a lot of reasons Scott got elected to the All-Star game, none of them are because fighting is super-popular.

It's like you're allergic to an intellectually honest conversation.

You're right, because how could it possibly be fans resistant to the the new NHL is being shoved down their throats.

I mean once he got there it's not like he was such a laughing stock that he'd never come close to getting voted as All Star MVP.

Oh wait...

Plus the new NHL handled the matter very very VERY badly.
It's like you dismiss intelligent facts to suit your agenda.

 

[Kin]

You're right, because how could it possibly be fans resistant to the the new NHL is being shoved down their throats.

That's just factually inaccurate. I listen to the Marek vs. Wyshinski podcast, where the movement to vote Scott into the all-star game started, and it was never about wanting more fighting in hockey or wanting to see fighting in an all-star game.

I mean once he got there it's not like he was such a laughing stock that he'd never come close to getting voted as All Star MVP.

Oh wait...

Plus the new NHL handled the matter very very VERY badly.
It's like you dismiss intelligent facts to suit your agenda.

That's because none of these are relevant facts(or facts at all), let alone within the same zipcode of intelligence. You're doing what you always do of attempting to obfuscate the discussion via strawmen and changing the subject. Whether or not the NHL handled the Scott situation badly, and if you look on the board for our threads about the matter I made my opinion on that very clear, the Scott all-star situation had nothing to do with the necessity or utility of fighting which is what we're discussing.

Hockey, as busta points out, exists just fine without fighting. That's an incontrovertible fact.

 

[TBLeafer]

You're right, because how could it possibly be fans resistant to the the new NHL is being shoved down their throats.

That's just factually inaccurate. I listen to the Marek vs. Wyshinski podcast, where the movement to vote Scott into the all-star game started, and it was never about wanting more fighting in hockey or wanting to see fighting in an all-star game.

I mean once he got there it's not like he was such a laughing stock that he'd never come close to getting voted as All Star MVP.

Oh wait...

Plus the new NHL handled the matter very very VERY badly.
It's like you dismiss intelligent facts to suit your agenda.

That's because none of these are relevant facts(or facts at all), let alone within the same zipcode of intelligence. You're doing what you always do of attempting to obfuscate the discussion via strawmen and changing the subject. Whether or not the NHL handled the Scott situation badly, and if you look on the board for our threads about the matter I made my opinion on that very clear, the Scott all-star situation had nothing to do with the necessity or utility of fighting which is what we're discussing.

Hockey, as busta points out, exists just fine without fighting. That's an incontrovertible fact.

Of course not not which is why we signed Martin, to protect the kids because we weren't tough enough last season.

How many fights did he have last season again?

 

[Kin]

How many fights did he have last season again?

Two more than the Stanley Cup champions combined.

 

[TBLeafer]

How many fights did he have last season again?

Two more than the Stanley Cup champions combined.

And how many fights did the last place finishing Leafs have last season?

 

[Kin]

And how many fights did the last place finishing Leafs have last season?

One more than the Stanley Cup champions.

 

[TBLeafer]

And how many fights did the last place finishing Leafs have last season?

One more than the Stanley Cup champions.

I guess Kadri should have let himself be manhandled by Backes then...

 

[L K]

It's become so unpopular that fans didn't want John Scott anywhere near last season's All Star game.

Oh wait...

Are you honestly trying to imply that John Scott wasn't anything more than a joke vote?  Come on.

Here's a thought.  Intentional head injuries are friging stupid.  But what the hell do I know.

 

[L K]

So Pat Maroon is a buffoon. I can think of no other contact team sport where fighting is even remotely tolerated. Bare-knuckle fighting by professional athletes is a ridiculous concept.

I don't think the rules went far enough. Given how few players actually hit 10 fights in a year, it's going to have very little impact. The rule against staged fights is good though.

Intellectually you're right but it's a bigger deal than just Maroon. Throughout the years whenever Bettman's been asked about banning fighting one of the things he's always said, and something that I think he's being honest about, is that they get major pushback from the players.

That doesn't surprise me. But aside from the interesting-personality aspect that you discuss, I see no benefit to the game, tangible or otherwise.

Do you recall the reasons given by the players? I'd be curious to try to understand them.

Us player/coaching types understand how high emotions can get in such a high adrenaline sport, like hockey.  As far as team sports go, the pace is unlike any other.  It's literally the fastest team sport in the world, unless you count bobsledding.

Its easy for casual fans that never played the game to sit back and snub their noses at it.

Bettman needs to go and a former hockey personality, not a lawyer, needs to be put in his place!

How about we don't follow morons who think throwing punches needlessly when we have far too much evidence already about the negative consequences of repeated head trauma.  But please, provide your thrilling insight on this one.

 

[Kin]

I guess Kadri should have let himself be manhandled by Backes then...

Or, instead of going with another strawman, you could acknowledge the fairly obvious point I'm actually making which is there's no real correlation between being a good team and fighting. The last 5 Cup winners have ranked 29th, 29th, 21st, 26th and 18th in fighting majors. When Babcock won a cup and almost won another his team ranked dead last in the league in fighting both years.

I don't know if there's a negative correlation between fighting and winning but it's pretty clear that fighting is wholly unnecessary for a team to be good.

 

[TBLeafer]

So Pat Maroon is a buffoon. I can think of no other contact team sport where fighting is even remotely tolerated. Bare-knuckle fighting by professional athletes is a ridiculous concept.

I don't think the rules went far enough. Given how few players actually hit 10 fights in a year, it's going to have very little impact. The rule against staged fights is good though.

Intellectually you're right but it's a bigger deal than just Maroon. Throughout the years whenever Bettman's been asked about banning fighting one of the things he's always said, and something that I think he's being honest about, is that they get major pushback from the players.

That doesn't surprise me. But aside from the interesting-personality aspect that you discuss, I see no benefit to the game, tangible or otherwise.

Do you recall the reasons given by the players? I'd be curious to try to understand them.

Us player/coaching types understand how high emotions can get in such a high adrenaline sport, like hockey.  As far as team sports go, the pace is unlike any other.  It's literally the fastest team sport in the world, unless you count bobsledding.

Its easy for casual fans that never played the game to sit back and snub their noses at it.

Bettman needs to go and a former hockey personality, not a lawyer, needs to be put in his place!

How about we don't follow morons who think throwing punches needlessly when we have far too much evidence already about the negative consequences of repeated head trauma.  But please, provide your thrilling insight on this one.

I give you Mike Babcock:

?You want to stay out of the box if you possibly can and, if you?re skating and have the puck, you don?t take as many penalties,? Babcock reminded the press gang on Thursday. ?If you take the fights out of it, (Detroit?s PIM total) might not have been the same. That?s the team we had. I don?t mind fighting.?

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/09/24/babcock-isnt-pushing-pacifism-for-maple-leafs

He likes to run a disciplined squad, yes.  But that doesn't mean he will put up with his players being pushed around, hence the Martin signing.

Here is our fearless leader's fighting card:

http://dropyourgloves.com/fights/FightCard.aspx?P=4081

 

[TBLeafer]

I guess Kadri should have let himself be manhandled by Backes then...

Or, instead of going with another strawman, you could acknowledge the fairly obvious point I'm actually making which is there's no real correlation between being a good team and fighting. The last 5 Cup winners have ranked 29th, 29th, 21st, 26th and 18th in fighting majors. When Babcock won a cup and almost won another his team ranked dead last in the league in fighting both years.

I don't know if there's a negative correlation between fighting and winning but it's pretty clear that fighting is wholly unnecessary for a team to be good.

I think its more about being disciplined, but being prepared and equipped at the same time.  As it should be.  No strawman here, unless you actually enjoy Crosby dropping his gloves.

 

[Kin]

If you're starting from the position that everything this management team does is perfect and working backwards to justify every decision on that basis you're not really engaging any actual analysis.

 

[bustaheims]

Are you honestly trying to imply that John Scott wasn't anything more than a joke vote?  Come on.

Well, it was, in that it became a beacon for just how broken the league's All-Star voting system is - but, that's really the extent of it. Even John Scott himself recognized that his election wasn't a serious thing, as did the rest of the players in the game, so they had fun with it - which is great, because, that's part of what the ASG should be about. But, making out to be any more than that is just absurd.

 

[TBLeafer]

Are you honestly trying to imply that John Scott wasn't anything more than a joke vote?  Come on.

Well, it was, in that it became a beacon for just how broken the league's All-Star voting system is - but, that's really the extent of it. Even John Scott himself recognized that his election wasn't a serious thing, as did the rest of the players in the game, so they had fun with it - which is great, because, that's part of what the ASG should be about. But, making out to be any more than that is just absurd.

I guess the NHL itself is absurd then. It certainly made it out to be 'more than that'.

 

[TBLeafer]

If you're starting from the position that everything this management team does is perfect and working backwards to justify every decision on that basis you're not really engaging any actual analysis.

No, I'm coming from the position that a TEAM takes all different kinds, to be successful and should be properly prepared for anything the league might throw at them.

Hence Matt Martin, which is a depth signing I'm perfectly okay with, personally speaking.