All quiet on the Leaf front. But why?

[Rebel_1812]

How many fans here DON'T believe that the Leafs will be a better team in 2-3 years time, if not next season? I guess it's those type of fans that can't see the forest from the trees that cant understand the process. All signs are pointing to the fact that Burke is going the route of a typical rebuild now. For those of you who wanted that, it's happening. For those of you who expect to have a much better team now, forget it. No big name signings (except for a possible goaltender?) No quick fixes. No spend to the cap. The process is long and excruciating, but mud slinging won't change it. It's not a process we're used to in TO, and some people will give up, get angry, point fingers, and even jump ship I'm sure. Anyways, that's my rant for the day....

My rant has nothing to do with where the Leafs will be in the next 2-3 years.  My rant has to do with where the Leafs are today.  Burke has presided over this team for the last 3.5 years.  They are not in a better position today than they were 3.5 years ago.  My point was that Dean Lombardi managed to significantly improve the team he was running in 4 years . Why can't the Leafs have a management team that provides that kind of improvement within the same time period.

Also, interesting point.  For all those that are pointing to the prospect pool being so much better, we all realize that the only Burke draft pick that has played for this team over the last 3.5 years is Nazem Kadri.  1 prospect that Burke has drafted over the last 3.5 years has played for this team.  I guess technically it could be 2 as Gardiner was a Burke pick with the Anahiem ducks, but that seems to be a low number for a team that is supposed to have a decent prospect pool. 

I'm just going to say it again.  Burke has only done a so-so job to this point.  I know all of you that have blue and white coloured classes on read that as me saying that Burke is worthless and that he should be fired, but really, all I am saying is that this management team should have been able to perform better over the last couple of years.  Their margin for error is extremely small.  They cannot make mistakes any more.

Bozak was a prospect Burke signed.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Also, interesting point.  For all those that are pointing to the prospect pool being so much better, we all realize that the only Burke draft pick that has played for this team over the last 3.5 years is Nazem Kadri.  1 prospect that Burke has drafted over the last 3.5 years has played for this team.  I guess technically it could be 2 as Gardiner was a Burke pick with the Anahiem ducks, but that seems to be a low number for a team that is supposed to have a decent prospect pool. 

That seems about right.  The 1st rounder from his first Toronto draft has seen some NHL time, after finishing his junior career.  Didn't have a 1st rounder the next season, and those prospects are either finishing their junior careers, or trying out for the NHL/AHL this season.  The 2011 class has seen one of the 1st rounders play in the AHL already.

They seem to be following a normal development - finish up in junior, play a year or two in the AHL.

He's also acquired prospect-age Colborne, who has seen NHL time, acquired Scrivens who has seen NHL time, acquired Gustavsson, Rynnas who have seen NHL time.

There's depth there.  There's not 1st overall pick 3 times in a row elite talent, but there's a good mix of players that have been added to the prospect/young NHLer ranks.

 

[bustaheims]

Hasn't Burke turned down pretty good draft picks on 2 separate occasions for Clarke MacArthur? IIRC, Burke even said so himself on one of those occasions (I could be "misremembering").

I only recall one occasion, and the rumours that came out was that it was a conditional pick. If the Leafs are out of the playoff hunt at the deadline again this season, he'll likely be able to get similar value for him, but in a deeper draft, so, I guess you could say Burke hedged his bets on that one.

 

[slapshot]

My goodness, people ranting about 3.5 years like it's been forever. There are what 6-7 general managers in the entire league that have actually won a cup, Burke being one of them.
Guys like Reiger and McPhee have been with their teams for what 15 years or so. Yes, they make the playoffs but they haven't won anything.
Some of the GMs that won like Bowman and Shero, walked into teams that were already stacked. Even Ken Holland did his first couple of cups, taking over from Bowman.
I see Leafs as really starting to stock the cupboards. Gardiner and Frattin gave a lot of room for optimism last year. If they continue to progress and there is no reason to think they won't, and we get a couple more advancing (say Kadri, Colborne or D'Amigo) things can turn around pretty quick. Even JVR, if he plays up to his potential, could make a big difference. It would be interesting to see what he could do between Kessel and Lupul, if they decide to try him there.
If the Leafs can get solid, consistent goaltending, I think they are in the playoffs for sure and the continued building will carry on with guys like Biggs, Ross, Rielly and Percy coming down the pike soon.
Good young core coming I think personally. Even the vets like Phaneuf and Kessel will not be "old" when the younger guys gain experience.

 

[rdowdall]

My goodness, people ranting about 3.5 years like it's been forever. There are what 6-7 general managers in the entire league that have actually won a cup, Burke being one of them.
Guys like Reiger and McPhee have been with their teams for what 15 years or so. Yes, they make the playoffs but they haven't won anything.
Some of the GMs that won like Bowman and Shero, walked into teams that were already stacked. Even Ken Holland did his first couple of cups, taking over from Bowman.
I see Leafs as really starting to stock the cupboards. Gardiner and Frattin gave a lot of room for optimism last year. If they continue to progress and there is no reason to think they won't, and we get a couple more advancing (say Kadri, Colborne or D'Amigo) things can turn around pretty quick. Even JVR, if he plays up to his potential, could make a big difference. It would be interesting to see what he could do between Kessel and Lupul, if they decide to try him there.
If the Leafs can get solid, consistent goaltending, I think they are in the playoffs for sure and the continued building will carry on with guys like Biggs, Ross, Rielly and Percy coming down the pike soon.
Good young core coming I think personally. Even the vets like Phaneuf and Kessel will not be "old" when the younger guys gain experience.

Highlighted my issues with you post.  There are still a lot of questions with this team going forward.  Should some of these not be answered by now?

Also, we have no idea what that core is going to look like.  Biggs and Ross project to be 3rd line players.  That's probably where they are going to end up.  And that's great.  Having two really good 3rd line players will help them be a more complete team.  But how does this team compete against a Philly team that has the offensive firepower that they do?  Or a Boston team that is as complete as they are?  Or a Pittsburgh team that has two #1 centre's?  The Leafs don't have the pieces to compete with these teams.  They lack the elite talent necessary to keep up with them night in and night out.

The bottom line is that, the big club has not shown a progression since Burke took over.  They have finished pretty much in the same place in the standings each year that Burke has been in power.  Saying "If the Leafs get better players they will be a better team" is all well and good, and I agree with the principle.  The problem I have is how do the Leafs get said players. 

 

[Champ Kind]

How many fans here DON'T believe that the Leafs will be a better team in 2-3 years time, if not next season? I guess it's those type of fans that can't see the forest from the trees that cant understand the process. All signs are pointing to the fact that Burke is going the route of a typical rebuild now. For those of you who wanted that, it's happening. For those of you who expect to have a much better team now, forget it. No big name signings (except for a possible goaltender?) No quick fixes. No spend to the cap. The process is long and excruciating, but mud slinging won't change it. It's not a process we're used to in TO, and some people will give up, get angry, point fingers, and even jump ship I'm sure. Anyways, that's my rant for the day....

,

I would assume that if Burke misses the playoffs again this year he's done. The only way he can significantly improve the team via a trade would gut the 1-2 decent prospects in the organization & draft picks. I doubt he lasts the year.

Bryan Murray can survive, anyone can.  Oh wait we don't have a mad man owning our team.

No - but I bet you wish you did right about now.

I won't speak for Corn Flake but I can without a doubt tell you I'd rather have Burke and the current MLSE ownership than Murray and Eugene "Boom Boom" Melnyk.

 

[Madferret]

How many fans here DON'T believe that the Leafs will be a better team in 2-3 years time, if not next season? I guess it's those type of fans that can't see the forest from the trees that cant understand the process. All signs are pointing to the fact that Burke is going the route of a typical rebuild now. For those of you who wanted that, it's happening. For those of you who expect to have a much better team now, forget it. No big name signings (except for a possible goaltender?) No quick fixes. No spend to the cap. The process is long and excruciating, but mud slinging won't change it. It's not a process we're used to in TO, and some people will give up, get angry, point fingers, and even jump ship I'm sure. Anyways, that's my rant for the day....

,

I would assume that if Burke misses the playoffs again this year he's done. The only way he can significantly improve the team via a trade would gut the 1-2 decent prospects in the organization & draft picks. I doubt he lasts the year.

Bryan Murray can survive, anyone can.  Oh wait we don't have a mad man owning our team.

No - but I bet you wish you did right about now.

I won't speak for Corn Flake but I can without a doubt tell you I'd rather have Burke and the current MLSE ownership than Murray and Eugene "Boom Boom" Melnyk.

That's good. You are in good hands

 

[Corn Flake]

How many fans here DON'T believe that the Leafs will be a better team in 2-3 years time, if not next season? I guess it's those type of fans that can't see the forest from the trees that cant understand the process. All signs are pointing to the fact that Burke is going the route of a typical rebuild now. For those of you who wanted that, it's happening. For those of you who expect to have a much better team now, forget it. No big name signings (except for a possible goaltender?) No quick fixes. No spend to the cap. The process is long and excruciating, but mud slinging won't change it. It's not a process we're used to in TO, and some people will give up, get angry, point fingers, and even jump ship I'm sure. Anyways, that's my rant for the day....

,

I would assume that if Burke misses the playoffs again this year he's done. The only way he can significantly improve the team via a trade would gut the 1-2 decent prospects in the organization & draft picks. I doubt he lasts the year.

Bryan Murray can survive, anyone can.  Oh wait we don't have a mad man owning our team.

No - but I bet you wish you did right about now.

I won't speak for Corn Flake but I can without a doubt tell you I'd rather have Burke and the current MLSE ownership than Murray and Eugene "Boom Boom" Melnyk.

That's good. You are in good hands

Did you think you were in good hands a year ago after Murray and Melnyk completed the mass-demolition of what was not long ago a team in the cup finals? 

It's amazing how fast things turn around when the team starts winning, no?

 

[rdowdall]

How many fans here DON'T believe that the Leafs will be a better team in 2-3 years time, if not next season? I guess it's those type of fans that can't see the forest from the trees that cant understand the process. All signs are pointing to the fact that Burke is going the route of a typical rebuild now. For those of you who wanted that, it's happening. For those of you who expect to have a much better team now, forget it. No big name signings (except for a possible goaltender?) No quick fixes. No spend to the cap. The process is long and excruciating, but mud slinging won't change it. It's not a process we're used to in TO, and some people will give up, get angry, point fingers, and even jump ship I'm sure. Anyways, that's my rant for the day....

My rant has nothing to do with where the Leafs will be in the next 2-3 years.  My rant has to do with where the Leafs are today.  Burke has presided over this team for the last 3.5 years.  They are not in a better position today than they were 3.5 years ago.  My point was that Dean Lombardi managed to significantly improve the team he was running in 4 years . Why can't the Leafs have a management team that provides that kind of improvement within the same time period.

Also, interesting point.  For all those that are pointing to the prospect pool being so much better, we all realize that the only Burke draft pick that has played for this team over the last 3.5 years is Nazem Kadri.  1 prospect that Burke has drafted over the last 3.5 years has played for this team.  I guess technically it could be 2 as Gardiner was a Burke pick with the Anahiem ducks, but that seems to be a low number for a team that is supposed to have a decent prospect pool. 

I'm just going to say it again.  Burke has only done a so-so job to this point.  I know all of you that have blue and white coloured classes on read that as me saying that Burke is worthless and that he should be fired, but really, all I am saying is that this management team should have been able to perform better over the last couple of years.  Their margin for error is extremely small.  They cannot make mistakes any more.

Bozak was a prospect Burke signed.

That is an absolutely true statement.

 

[Madferret]

How many fans here DON'T believe that the Leafs will be a better team in 2-3 years time, if not next season? I guess it's those type of fans that can't see the forest from the trees that cant understand the process. All signs are pointing to the fact that Burke is going the route of a      typical rebuild now. For those of you who wanted that, it's happening. For those of you who expect to have a much better team now, forget it. No big name signings (except for a possible goaltender?) No quick fixes. No spend to the cap. The process is long and excruciating, but mud slinging won't change it. It's not a process we're used to in TO, and some people will give up, get angry, point fingers, and even jump ship I'm sure. Anyways, that's my rant for the day....

,

I would assume that if Burke misses the playoffs again this year he's done. The only way he can significantly improve the team via a trade would gut the 1-2 decent prospects in the organization & draft picks. I doubt he lasts the year.

Bryan Murray can survive, anyone can.  Oh wait we don't have a mad man owning our team.

No - but I bet you wish you did right about now.

I won't speak for Corn Flake but I can without a doubt tell you I'd rather have Burke and the current MLSE ownership than Murray and Eugene "Boom Boom" Melnyk.

That's good. You are in good hands

Did you think you were in good hands a year ago after  Murray and Melnyk completed the mass-demolition of what was not long ago a team in the cup finals? 

It's amazing how fast things turn around when the team starts winning, no?

Yes - I supported the decision to retool / rebuild. What's your point?

 

[cw]

I was listening to Burke on the FAN590
audio link

Generally, UFAs are an attractive thing to add to a roster because they come with no young talent cost and push everyone down the depth chart. Much more often than not, the team is improved. Trades tend to be less of an impact because roughly the exchange is of equal value and if it upgrades the NHL roster, then youth was probably sacrificed (ignoring that some trades can help both teams by shoring up areas of weakness).

In some ways, I see the effort over the summer as a big game of musical chairs. 30 teams times 23 players per team leaves 690 'seats' in the game. 45-60 or so rookies are going to take some of those seats as fewer are willing to retire. So when the season is about to start, there's a scramble by GMs to get under the cap or get something they need and by the players to get a seat in the upcoming season.

Some of the UFA signings create a domino effect as some of the signing teams have to shed bodies or contracts.

I agree with Burke that the UFA market after Parise & Suter was lousy as it has been for several summers. I also agree that there may be more opportunity for trades this summer than summers past. I just have my doubts that a top six center or a starting goalie can be had very easily without mortgaging some future or removing a chunk of the NHL roster that takes away from the impact on the NHL roster adding such a player via UFA would have.

I also think that with the departure of Schenn and Carlyle wanting to be a more physical team, they need to add a physical defensive dman (who hopefully is good on the PK) and aside from trying to collect a set of bigger bodies in the forwards. After Komisarek & Phaneuf, Franson's a good size but doesn't use it and the rest are not physical.

Needing improvement in so many positions (goal, defensive dman, physical forwards & top 6 center), I think it's fair to expect they'll get some help when the music stops to start the season. I am left concerned whether Burke will be able to do enough.

 

[Corn Flake]

I was listening to Burke on the FAN590
audio link
Needing improvement in so many positions (goal, defensive dman, physical forwards & top 6 center), I think it's fair to expect they'll get some help when the music stops to start the season. I am left concerned whether Burke will be able to do enough.

Burke threw out a bone that didn't seem to get picked up on, which was when he said (paraphrased) that teams that have spent a lot of money in the last few days are the ones who are now looking to move some out. 

Wouldn't take long to look at the teams who have spent the most and who they might have for sale that would meet the needs of the Leafs.  (I might do it later, can't right now)

Plus layer on to that what happens after Parise and Suter sign.  A lot of teams who lose out might go hog wild immediately afterward.  Will change a lot of things right there.

 

[Corn Flake]

Yes - I supported the decision to retool / rebuild. What's your point?

I miss you being fun, Chuck Norris.

 

[Madferret]

Yes - I supported the decision to retool / rebuild. What's your point?

I miss you being fun, Chuck Norris.

Go blow yourself up?

 

[rdowdall]

I was listening to Burke on the FAN590
audio link
Needing improvement in so many positions (goal, defensive dman, physical forwards & top 6 center), I think it's fair to expect they'll get some help when the music stops to start the season. I am left concerned whether Burke will be able to do enough.

Burke threw out a bone that didn't seem to get picked up on, which was when he said (paraphrased) that teams that have spent a lot of money in the last few days are the ones who are now looking to move some out. 

Wouldn't take long to look at the teams who have spent the most and who they might have for sale that would meet the needs of the Leafs.  (I might do it later, can't right now)

Plus layer on to that what happens after Parise and Suter sign.  A lot of teams who lose out might go hog wild immediately afterward.  Will change a lot of things right there.

Colorado and the Islanders spent some cash.  Anahiem added a little bit. So did Dallas.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

Good grief, Nik, I hope not.  Burke has said almost as much, though he's presented the possibility that this might be the squad to open.  I think, though, he's pretty agreed with the obvious: the LEafs need goaltending.

Yeah, well, Burke says a lot of things.

Joking aside, I think the question of goaltending can only really be answered if you know what the Leafs aims are for the season. Let's assume you're right and they do want to add goaltending and, for the sake of argument, assume Luongo isn't an option. What's left? Who's available out there for a price Burke wants to pay?

I sort of look at Burke saying "we want to improve" these days the way I look at me saying "I want a Bentley". Both might be true. Both may even reflect future plans. But the price remains the sticking point.

Maybe we could start a collection on here for you. How much are you short? 

 

[Zee]

So let's hope that the two big boys now signed, this opens up the floodgates for trades.  Anxious to see what master plan Burke has up his sleeve this time.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

My goodness, people ranting about 3.5 years like it's been forever. There are what 6-7 general managers in the entire league that have actually won a cup, Burke being one of them.
Guys like Reiger and McPhee have been with their teams for what 15 years or so. Yes, they make the playoffs but they haven't won anything.
Some of the GMs that won like Bowman and Shero, walked into teams that were already stacked. Even Ken Holland did his first couple of cups, taking over from Bowman.
I see Leafs as really starting to stock the cupboards. Gardiner and Frattin gave a lot of room for optimism last year. If they continue to progress and there is no reason to think they won't, and we get a couple more advancing (say Kadri, Colborne or D'Amigo) things can turn around pretty quick. Even JVR, if he plays up to his potential, could make a big difference. It would be interesting to see what he could do between Kessel and Lupul, if they decide to try him there.
If the Leafs can get solid, consistent goaltending, I think they are in the playoffs for sure and the continued building will carry on with guys like Biggs, Ross, Rielly and Percy coming down the pike soon.
Good young core coming I think personally. Even the vets like Phaneuf and Kessel will not be "old" when the younger guys gain experience.

So Shero, Bowman and Holland are all just lucky? Regier and McPhee are not very good because they've remained competitive but never won the Cup?

Burke has done very little in his time here in terms of tangible results. Yes he's done some decent things with the prospects, as should be expected with 3 years of missing the playoffs (and 4 years of picks before that), but he's also traded away a large amount of his possible picks.

This team will likely need to be competitive (make the playoffs) for a good few years before a Cup magically appears.

The fact that Burke still needs to address the #1C, #1D and #1G indicate that this team will a) suck for awhile yet o  b) move a bunch of the good prospects to obtain those players.

He's damned if he doesn't (team continues to languish and miss the playoffs) and damned if he does (roster gets stronger but the prospects he's been busy developing disappear).

Ultimately I think most people will get off his back if the team is competitive again, even if he ends up trading Kadri/Colborne/Frattin/D'Amigo/Percy/Blacker/Ross/Biggs etc.

 

[Corn Flake]

I was listening to Burke on the FAN590
audio link
Needing improvement in so many positions (goal, defensive dman, physical forwards & top 6 center), I think it's fair to expect they'll get some help when the music stops to start the season. I am left concerned whether Burke will be able to do enough.

Burke threw out a bone that didn't seem to get picked up on, which was when he said (paraphrased) that teams that have spent a lot of money in the last few days are the ones who are now looking to move some out. 

Wouldn't take long to look at the teams who have spent the most and who they might have for sale that would meet the needs of the Leafs.  (I might do it later, can't right now)

Plus layer on to that what happens after Parise and Suter sign.  A lot of teams who lose out might go hog wild immediately afterward.  Will change a lot of things right there.

Colorado and the Islanders spent some cash.  Anahiem added a little bit. So did Dallas.

New Jersey as well. Assumption would be no matter what they are a cap floor team with their ownership money problems.

Things could still change dramatically once Parise and Suter land.  Nash, Ryan, and a bunch of others could suddenly change hands.

 

[Redleaf]

I'm still trying to figure out if Burke is planning on making the dance next year.

I still think that the team as is will be what we see in camp, more or less.

FWIW...

?I would say that?s not a real possibility at all,? Burke told Sportsnet 590 The Fan radio when asked if the current roster will be the one that reports for camp. ?That?s remote. We need to do some more work.

?We believe we can upgrade at those positions, yes.?