All quiet on the Leaf front. But why?

[Zee]

So I will ask you the same question I asked BWB, what was your timeline?  Honestly, how long before Burke turned this team in to a playoff team and how long before it was a Stanley cup contender?

We have no way of knowing until my time machine gets back from the shop.

I think this is part of the problem with you guys who call it all a failure... you want hard deadlines for this stuff and it realistically can't be provided.  As badly as I would like to know the answer, it won't be known until it happens.  It looked like it would be last year for the first 4 months and I was as disappointed and frustrated as anyone else when it fell apart. 

I think you guys think some of the more positive people sit around immune to the frustration and hair pulling that goes on when the team goes through what it did and how long its been since we saw a playoff game here.  Couldn't be further from the truth.

So let me ask you this.  Can you with 100% certainty tell me what Burke is going to do to make this team better in the next year or two.  Can you guarantee that a playoff spot is coming within the next two years, and tell me exactly what Burke is going to do to provide that playoff spot? 

Because I can, with 100% certainty show you what he *has* done, and how it has *not* worked on the ice to date as it pertains to getting in to the playoffs.

Burke isn't interested in making the playoffs to get his ass kicked, it's all about the parade man. Get with the program.

 

[Kin]

People can evaluate Burke and call what he did mediocre all they want, I guess I just don't see where it gets anybody is all.

That makes the assumption that people are looking at fandom as having an active role in the franchise. I don't really understand that. The only thing I'm ever trying to do when I look at the franchise is to assess it honestly. It doesn't make me feel bad to say "The Leafs are bad" and it wouldn't make me feel good to say the opposite unless I genuinely believed it to be true. Either way, I don't think my perspective does or should have an impact on things.

What I meant about other GM's not having to put up with some of the hostility that Burke has, was a GM like Regier, who has been with his organization for a lot of years without a cup, but Burke has to make everything roses is 3 years or he should be toast.

It's this sort of exaggeration that doesn't really convey that you're in anyway listening to what people are saying. People are reacting to a lack of progress and/or development, not a lack of perfection.

 

[Jalili]

Ah yes, but 16  teams make the playoffs, which is over half the league, so it would be preposterous to think that after three years of missing the playoffs under one GM, that we would somehow make it in within the next 4 under a new GM.

If I stripped you of everything in your life except the clothes on your body, shoes, and $20 bucks.  How long would it take you to get back to a point where you could buy a house?  Is that an extreme example?  Yes, but basically that's what we're coming from as far as organizational depth.  JFJ stripped this team severely of talent and brought in even less talented vets.  I will give him this, the good vets we did have were aging to a point where they were less effective.  You can't ask for the world without putting into context where we came from in regards to the talent pool in the organization.

Since Burke has started, we have become one of the youngest teams in the league.  If you forget, we were one of the oldest in JFJ's tenure.  We have a stockpile of A- to B level prospects.  I'd say A++ are elite (we don't have that).  So, ya, I'd say we are moving in the right direction.

I would say that is very extreme, because there was already talent in the organization before Burke arrived.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

It's this sort of exaggeration that doesn't really convey that you're in anyway listening to what people are saying. People are reacting to a lack of progress and/or development, not a lack of perfection.

I guess this is what I'm struggling with. It does seem at times that people expect Burke to be perfect, or he should be canned. I can't help people if they truly can't look at the Leafs and see actual progress.

I need to just ignore comments made in frustration a little more.

 

[Kin]

I guess this is what I'm struggling with. It does seem at times that people expect Burke to be perfect, or he should be canned.

Yeah, like I said, Burke has had nothing in the way of tangible success here. By his own admission not making the playoffs is a failure.

Getting to the playoffs is not perfection. Having elite prospects in the system is not perfection. Showing steady, measurable progress is not perfection. Saying people are on him because they expect perfection is like saying that any criticism of anyone anywhere is expecting perfection.

 

[Zee]

Unless something drastically changes this isn't a playoff team this upcoming season. So then we're into the summer of 2013, about to go into Kessel's final year of his contract, what incentive will he have to re-sign here? Imagine the disaster of losing him for nothing after what we gave up for him?  His reasons for leaving will be to go to a contender, how ironic that after 5 years of him being here the team is still not a contender. Is that progress?

 

[rdowdall]

Again, who is saying they're not going to be cheering for this team or booing them? Is anyone on this board saying that? I'm not sure where you're getting this from.

I say fans in general, not just particularly on this board. There are Leaf fans everywhere. It's the general feel, rather than quoting anybody. I'll just shut up, since my optimism is in the minority.

EDIT: I also don't have time to argue every point today, especially the ones that have been argued in the past.

Optimism is not what your espousing though.  Your glossing over the current problems that the Leafs have and claiming your being optimistic. 

Optimism would be "Burke has really dug us in to a hole right now, but I believe that he will be able to find that goalie that we need" or "I hear there are a lot of names being mentioned in trades, and even Burke's trade record is somewhat spotty up to this point, I am pretty sure he is going to make a stellar deal to get us to where we need to be".  That is believing that good things are going to happen even though bad things have happened in the past.  That is being optimistic.

What you are doing is ignoring the fact that bad things have happened up to this point.  Let me list off the bad things under Burkes tenure:

1.  Finished out of playoffs for 4 years. Despite finishing out of playoffs for four straight years, only has 1 top five pick to show for it.
2.  Has not been able to attract elite talent to come to Toronto through UFA market.
3.  Has overpaid on multiple contracts in UFA market.
4.  Has been unable to solidify the goaltending position despite having 4 years to do so.  Question marks are still there.
5.  Has been unable to complete a trade that will bring in the elite level talent that this team needs.
6.  Has hired a coach that wants to play style that he admits his team is not built to play.

Optimism is not the art of ignoring the bad that has gone on and saying yeah this guy is doing a good job.  Optimism is saying, this guy has done only a so-so job up until this point, but I still think he can build a team to get the Leafs in to the playoffs.

I have nothing against people being optimistic.  I have a problem when people are being optimistic without admitting that a whole lot has to go right in order for their optimism to be rewarded.  So far, over the last 4 years, a whole lot has not gone right for the Leafs, so you should be able to understand why some have soured on Burke and look upon his ability to turn this around with some uncertainty.

And people can say, well look at the prospect pool it's really great now, and it wasn't before.  I would agree that it's better, but those prospects have to start contributing at the NHL level very soon, or else all they ever remain are prospects.

 

[TimKerr]

Toronto will never be patient enough for development of it's drafted players to mature.

Totes. I mean, empty seat after empty seat, TV numbers in the toilet, profits drying up to nothing despite really affordable seats...what an impatient fanbase.

All sarcasm aside, I feel that things in the city will be changing at some point... It seems to me kids growing up these days care more about the Raptors than the Leafs. And kids these days also have the shortest attention span - so I don't see them filling the seats win or lose when it comes time for them to start buying tickets...

I guess what I'm trying to say is the maple leaf gravy train may be coming to an end...

To this point, my son is 7 years old as are all his friends. All of his friend's dads are Leafs fans (except for me of course) nonetheless none of those boys care about the Leafs. They love hockey but at that age they want to watch winners and now that they are able to watch the playoffs and follow along they are fans of the teams who win or advance in the playoffs. I have 7 year olds coming over to the house telling me how much they love the Predators and their cool yellow uniforms cause they get to see them in the playoffs.

When I ask them about the Leafs they all laugh hysterically and say the Leafs suck and they are the worst team in the league. These kids are the future of hockey fans in the GTA and they don't care about a losing team.

 

[#1PilarFan]

To this point, my son is 7 years old as are all his friends. All of his friend's dads are Leafs fans (except for me of course) nonetheless none of those boys care about the Leafs. They love hockey but at that age they want to watch winners and now that they are able to watch the playoffs and follow along they are fans of the teams who win or advance in the playoffs. I have 7 year olds coming over to the house telling me how much they love the Predators and their cool yellow uniforms cause they get to see them in the playoffs.

When I ask them about the Leafs they all laugh hysterically and say the Leafs suck and they are the worst team in the league. These kids are the future of hockey fans in the GTA and they don't care about a losing team.

That's a phase. I went through a phase when I was younger when I hated the Leafs and actively rooted against them. It was a dark time, but one I ultimately grew out of.

The Leafs will always be the biggest game in town and eventually MLSE will start winning and all of the kids who root for other teams will become diehard Leafs fans.

 

[jonlleafs]

To this point, my son is 7 years old as are all his friends. All of his friend's dads are Leafs fans (except for me of course) nonetheless none of those boys care about the Leafs. They love hockey but at that age they want to watch winners and now that they are able to watch the playoffs and follow along they are fans of the teams who win or advance in the playoffs. I have 7 year olds coming over to the house telling me how much they love the Predators and their cool yellow uniforms cause they get to see them in the playoffs.

When I ask them about the Leafs they all laugh hysterically and say the Leafs suck and they are the worst team in the league. These kids are the future of hockey fans in the GTA and they don't care about a losing team.

That's a phase. I went through a phase when I was younger when I hated the Leafs and actively rooted against them. It was a dark time, but one I ultimately grew out of.

The Leafs will always be the biggest game in town and eventually MLSE will start winning and all of the kids who root for other teams will become diehard Leafs fans.

Kids that age don't want to be ridiculed for cheering a loser team.  They'd be the laughingstock of their class.  So, to avoid that they associate with winners.  But once the Leafs are back in the playoffs, everyone will be back on board.

 

[Redleaf]

How many fans here DON'T believe that the Leafs will be a better team in 2-3 years time, if not next season? I guess it's those type of fans that can't see the forest from the trees that cant understand the process. All signs are pointing to the fact that Burke is going the route of a typical rebuild now. For those of you who wanted that, it's happening. For those of you who expect to have a much better team now, forget it. No big name signings (except for a possible goaltender?) No quick fixes. No spend to the cap. The process is long and excruciating, but mud slinging won't change it. It's not a process we're used to in TO, and some people will give up, get angry, point fingers, and even jump ship I'm sure. Anyways, that's my rant for the day....

 

[jonlleafs]

How many fans here DON'T believe that the Leafs will be a better team in 2-3 years time, if not next season? I guess it's those type of fans that can't see the forest from the trees that cant understand the process. All signs are pointing to the fact that Burke is going the route of a typical rebuild now. For those of you who wanted that, it's happening. For those of you who expect to have a much better team now, forget it. No big name signings (except for a possible goaltender?) No quick fixes. No spend to the cap. The process is long and excruciating, but mud slinging won't change it. It's not a process we're used to in TO, and some people will give up, get angry, point fingers, and even jump ship I'm sure. Anyways, that's my rant for the day....

BINGO!!  We have a winner!  Nicely put.  So I guess the question is, are you patient enough to build a winner or not?

 

[TimKerr]

To this point, my son is 7 years old as are all his friends. All of his friend's dads are Leafs fans (except for me of course) nonetheless none of those boys care about the Leafs. They love hockey but at that age they want to watch winners and now that they are able to watch the playoffs and follow along they are fans of the teams who win or advance in the playoffs. I have 7 year olds coming over to the house telling me how much they love the Predators and their cool yellow uniforms cause they get to see them in the playoffs.

When I ask them about the Leafs they all laugh hysterically and say the Leafs suck and they are the worst team in the league. These kids are the future of hockey fans in the GTA and they don't care about a losing team.

That's a phase. I went through a phase when I was younger when I hated the Leafs and actively rooted against them. It was a dark time, but one I ultimately grew out of.

The Leafs will always be the biggest game in town and eventually MLSE will start winning and all of the kids who root for other teams will become diehard Leafs fans.

Kids that age don't want to be ridiculed for cheering a loser team.  They'd be the laughingstock of their class.  So, to avoid that they associate with winners.  But once the Leafs are back in the playoffs, everyone will be back on board.

I hear where you are coming from. But my point was more to the point that they NEVER were on board. As long as these kids have been alive the Leafs have missed the playoffs. Now are their formative years as a fan and if they find an affinity for another team while the Leafs toil away, it might be hard to win them back. Especially in this technological era where they can watch and follow their favourite team no matter where they play or where the fan is.

This is kind of the same argument happening with the Jays and to some level the Raptors.

 

[jonlleafs]

To this point, my son is 7 years old as are all his friends. All of his friend's dads are Leafs fans (except for me of course) nonetheless none of those boys care about the Leafs. They love hockey but at that age they want to watch winners and now that they are able to watch the playoffs and follow along they are fans of the teams who win or advance in the playoffs. I have 7 year olds coming over to the house telling me how much they love the Predators and their cool yellow uniforms cause they get to see them in the playoffs.

When I ask them about the Leafs they all laugh hysterically and say the Leafs suck and they are the worst team in the league. These kids are the future of hockey fans in the GTA and they don't care about a losing team.

That's a phase. I went through a phase when I was younger when I hated the Leafs and actively rooted against them. It was a dark time, but one I ultimately grew out of.

The Leafs will always be the biggest game in town and eventually MLSE will start winning and all of the kids who root for other teams will become diehard Leafs fans.

Kids that age don't want to be ridiculed for cheering a loser team.  They'd be the laughingstock of their class.  So, to avoid that they associate with winners.  But once the Leafs are back in the playoffs, everyone will be back on board.

I hear where you are coming from. But my point was more to the point that they NEVER were on board. As long as these kids have been alive the Leafs have missed the playoffs. Now are their formative years as a fan and if they find an affinity for another team while the Leafs toil away, it might be hard to win them back. Especially in this technological era where they can watch and follow their favourite team no matter where they play or where the fan is.

This is kind of the same argument happening with the Jays and to some level the Raptors.

It might be the case, but hopefully its not.  I didn't start watching the Leafs until I was in high school.  And I kinda forced myself to watch it to see what the big fuss was all about.  Over the course of the season I got hooked.  But also, my friends played hockey too so it was a good way to connect with them.  I would say my case isn't typical as I would classify myself as a late bloomer in this regard, but hopefully in the next couple of years we get back into the playoffs and it will draw some young fans back.

 

[Kin]

All signs are pointing to the fact that Burke is going the route of a typical rebuild now. For those of you who wanted that, it's happening.

Yeah, no.

 

[Zee]

Burke was just on prime time sports. Trades are brewing according to him. He said something to the effect that there's a remote possibility the team as we see it now doesn't change before October. He says there are deals to be made.

 

[Redleaf]

All signs are pointing to the fact that Burke is going the route of a typical rebuild now. For those of you who wanted that, it's happening.

Yeah, no.

No, yeah. I guess it really depends on what the definition means to you.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Burke was just on prime time sports. Trades are brewing according to him. He said something to the effect that there's a remote possibility the team as we see it now doesn't change before October. He says there are deals to be made.

This is good, but expected.

 

[Frank E]

Burke was just on prime time sports. Trades are brewing according to him. He said something to the effect that there's a remote possibility the team as we see it now doesn't change before October. He says there are deals to be made.

What you've just written is really contradictory.  Did he say that he might be done, or did he say he's going to make the deals that are "to be made"? 

 

[Kin]

No, yeah. I guess it really depends on what the definition means to you.

Alright but that's the issue. People don't agree that what the Leafs are doing constitutes a rebuild. That doesn't make it a question of patience. The dispute is not about people with patience vs. those without. It's about the material question of what the Leafs need to become a contender and whether or not they're doing it.

It's not like the only two paths are a total rebuild and trading draft picks away like crazy. The New York Rangers have held onto their picks the last few years. Are they rebuilding?