All quiet on the Leaf front. But why?

[Kin]

Okay, I understand now.  I thought you were saying that they took their time with Kadri, and look it paid off.  I still think it's too early to tell if he is ready or not.  By not rushing him however, at least the Leafs can say that they don't have a definitive answer yet.

But it's still revisionist. It's not like the Leafs never sent players to the AHL before.

 

[Corn Flake]

Kadri is another example where the extra time does a lot of good.

Why is Kadri an example of that?

I said all that and you jump on that point?

They dealt with Kadri like a prospect should be instead of promoting him when he wasn't physically ready or being responsible in his own end.  He's now finally training to get strong enough to play in the NHL. It seems he now recognizes the work he needs to put in to make the show.  If this were the old days, I bet he would have been up after that first camp where he dazzled everyone with his skill, got pushed around and struggled.  He probably wouldn't have put the work in because he would have already been there.

It still remains to be seen whether he will make it this year but I bet he does and I think a big part is not bringing him up until he was ready.  Maybe overly ready but erring on the side of taking your time is not something this organization has ever really done... ever before.

Okay, I understand now.  I thought you were saying that they took their time with Kadri, and look it paid off.  I still think it's too early to tell if he is ready or not.  By not rushing him however, at least the Leafs can say that they don't have a definitive answer yet.

Yeah its the idea that the right thing to do is not rush players.  In many cases high profile prospects have often been rushed and it has backfired. 

I'm not saying ALL prospects have been rushed.... this isn't a black and white issue and shouldn't be taken that way, even though it always will be by some.

 

[Kin]

I'm not saying ALL prospects have been rushed.... this isn't a black and white issue and shouldn't be taken that way, even though it always will be by some.

Totally. People who speak in absolutes are the worst.

Keeping young players down longer or even a little too long is something we never had.  The development and patience is there like never before. 

 

[rdowdall]

Okay, I understand now.  I thought you were saying that they took their time with Kadri, and look it paid off.  I still think it's too early to tell if he is ready or not.  By not rushing him however, at least the Leafs can say that they don't have a definitive answer yet.

But it's still revisionist. It's not like the Leafs never sent players to the AHL before.

Yeah, I didn't think of that angle.  Antropov, Ponikorovsky, and Stajan all spent time in the minors.  In the case of Stajan it was after he had completed a year with the big club, and there were rumblings that it had actually set him back a little bit because he didn't think he deserved to be there and didn't try as hard.

Going back a little further, I can think of Potvin being seasoned on the farm for a couple years before he was brought up in a backup role.

So yes, the patience with prospects thing may be a bit overstated.

 

[Kin]

Yeah, I didn't think of that angle.  Antropov, Ponikorovsky, and Stajan all spent time in the minors.  In the case of Stajan it was after he had completed a year with the big club, and there were rumblings that it had actually set him back a little bit because he didn't think he deserved to be there and didn't try as hard.

Well, Boyes, Wellwood, Colaiacovo, Steen. Nobody got rushed. Antro got to the Leafs early on but even still it's pretty hard to make the argument that he didn't get properly developed.

 

[Corn Flake]

I'm not saying ALL prospects have been rushed.... this isn't a black and white issue and shouldn't be taken that way, even though it always will be by some.

Totally. People who speak in absolutes are the worst.

Keeping young players down longer or even a little too long is something we never had.  The development and patience is there like never before. 

Wow I sure am a terrible person.

 

[rdowdall]

Yeah, I didn't think of that angle.  Antropov, Ponikorovsky, and Stajan all spent time in the minors.  In the case of Stajan it was after he had completed a year with the big club, and there were rumblings that it had actually set him back a little bit because he didn't think he deserved to be there and didn't try as hard.

Well, Boyes, Wellwood, Colaiacovo, Steen. Nobody got rushed. Antro got to the Leafs early on but even still it's pretty hard to make the argument that he didn't get properly developed.

Schenn may have been rushed.  But yes, out of the group you listed, they all had their time to develop.

 

[Corn Flake]

Nobody got rushed.

People who speak in absolutes are the worst.

 

[Kin]

Schenn may have been rushed.  But yes, out of the group you listed, they all had their time to develop.

Well, personally, I'm not all that big on saying anyone got rushed regardless. There's no real way to know how to properly develop a player and without being able to try both ways there's no way to know if one approach would have worked where another failed. If the common wisdom on how to best develop a player was a universal then Joe Thornton was developed in the worst possible way by going immediately to the NHL and then getting stuck on the 4th line. He ended up being a pretty good player.

As is though for the sake of argument let's say Schenn was rushed and that it did hurt his development. That was a Cliff Fletcher decision. There seems to be this growing trend to try and present the JFJ/Fletcher tenure as being representative of the Leafs forever and ever but as you and I have noted the Quinn years weren't anything like that. If we're going to talk about what Burke's doing we can't just compare him to JFJ.

 

[Kin]

People who speak in absolutes are the worst.

I take it back. People who can't understand the concept of irony are the worst.

 

[Zee]

Nobody got rushed.

People who speak in absolutes are the worst.

Isn't that an absolute?

 

[Kin]

Isn't that an absolute?

Shhhh, he's supposed to get there on his own.

 

[Corn Flake]

Nobody got rushed.

People who speak in absolutes are the worst.

Isn't that an absolute?

 

[Corn Flake]

People who speak in absolutes are the worst.

I take it back. People who can't understand the concept of irony are the worst.

I know your angle. You didn't think of it, so it doesn't exist.

 

[rdowdall]

Well, personally, I'm not all that big on saying anyone got rushed regardless. There's no real way to know how to properly develop a player and without being able to try both ways there's no way to know if one approach would have worked where another failed. If the common wisdom on how to best develop a player was a universal then Joe Thornton was developed in the worst possible way by going immediately to the NHL and then getting stuck on the 4th line. He ended up being a pretty good player.

Good point.  It seems pretty common for people to jump to that as an excuse as to why player x or player y didn't work out.  I would venture a guess that there are a tonne of factors that go in to whether or not a player succeeds, one of which may be appearing in the NHL before they can handle it physically or mentally.

As is though for the sake of argument let's say Schenn was rushed and that it did hurt his development. That was a Cliff Fletcher decision. There seems to be this growing trend to try and present the JFJ/Fletcher tenure as being representative of the Leafs forever and ever but as you and I have noted the Quinn years weren't anything like that. If we're going to talk about what Burke's doing we can't just compare him to JFJ.

I think it's a common misconception because of where the top end talent has come from over the last 20 to 25 years.  Most of the stars on the Leafs teams since the late 80's were obtained through trade or free agent signing, i.e. Sundin, Gilmour, Andreychuk, Mogilny, Roberts, Curtis Joesph, Ed Belfour, but that doesn't mean that the Leafs weren't flushing out their roster with players that they had drafted. 

If you look at the 80's the Leafs did draft some pretty good players.  Vaive, Clark, Damphousse, Iafrate, Richardson, Courtnall come to mind, but they just couldn't seem to get over the hump, and they would inevitably make a bad deal, like the Kurvers deal or the Courtnall deal.

In the end, it seems to be mismanagement through a couple of bad deals that puts this team behind the eight ball.  In hindsight, it really makes you realize what a fairly decent job Quinn did to maintain the competence level of the Leafs for as long as he did.  Having Sundin probably helped a little though.

 

[Kin]

I know your angle. You didn't think of it, so it doesn't exist.

Yeah, you'll notice I said "can't".

 

[rdowdall]

Well, personally, I'm not all that big on saying anyone got rushed regardless. There's no real way to know how to properly develop a player and without being able to try both ways there's no way to know if one approach would have worked where another failed. If the common wisdom on how to best develop a player was a universal then Joe Thornton was developed in the worst possible way by going immediately to the NHL and then getting stuck on the 4th line. He ended up being a pretty good player.

Good point.  It seems pretty common for people to jump to that as an excuse as to why player x or player y didn't work out.  I would venture a guess that there are a tonne of factors that go in to whether or not a player succeeds, one of which may be appearing in the NHL before they can handle it physically or mentally.

As is though for the sake of argument let's say Schenn was rushed and that it did hurt his development. That was a Cliff Fletcher decision. There seems to be this growing trend to try and present the JFJ/Fletcher tenure as being representative of the Leafs forever and ever but as you and I have noted the Quinn years weren't anything like that. If we're going to talk about what Burke's doing we can't just compare him to JFJ.

I think it's a common misconception because of where the top end talent has come from over the last 20 to 25 years.  Most of the stars on the Leafs teams since the late 80's were obtained through trade or free agent signing, i.e. Sundin, Gilmour, Andreychuk, Mogilny, Roberts, Curtis Joesph, Ed Belfour, but that doesn't mean that the Leafs weren't flushing out their roster with players that they had drafted. 

If you look at the 80's the Leafs did draft some pretty good players.  Vaive, Clark, Damphousse, Iafrate, Richardson, Courtnall come to mind, but they just couldn't seem to get over the hump, and they would inevitably make a bad deal, like the Kurvers deal or the Courtnall deal.

In the end, it seems to be mismanagement through a couple of bad deals that puts this team behind the eight ball.  In hindsight, it really makes you realize what a fairly decent job Quinn did to maintain the competence level of the Leafs for as long as he did.  Having Sundin probably helped a little though.

My mistake, the Leafs did not draft Vaive, but they did draft Sittler and MacDonald.

 

[Kin]

In the end, it seems to be mismanagement through a couple of bad deals that puts this team behind the eight ball.  In hindsight, it really makes you realize what a fairly decent job Quinn did to maintain the competence level of the Leafs for as long as he did.  Having Sundin probably helped a little though.

Absolutely. The last 9 years have definitely made me realize that Quinn was doing a better job than I often gave him credit for.

To bring it slightly back around to the topic at hand, it's impossible to cut a neat line between the team's record in drafting and development and, right now, Burke doesn't have much in the way of a record on either.

 

[Kin]

My mistake, the Leafs did not draft Vaive, but they did draft Sittler and MacDonald.

For future reference you can just hit the "modify" button to make little edits.

 

[rdowdall]

My mistake, the Leafs did not draft Vaive, but they did draft Sittler and MacDonald.

For future reference you can just hit the "modify" button to make little edits.

I know, but I like owning up to my mistakes. People will see that it was modified, but they won't know exactly what I modified, thus covering the inaccuracy up.  Feels very forum-gate-esque.