All quiet on the Leaf front. But why?

[jonlleafs]

I remember Tucker drilling Roenick behind the goalie (can't remember which end) Roenick gets up dazed and almost falls.  I think he leaves for a bit and comes back to score.  Maybe it wasn't the winner.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're confusing that with his hit on Kapanen.

I remember Roenick getting drilled behind the goalie.  I could be mistaking it for Tucker delivering the hit, but I don't know who else on the team would have done that at that time.  It definitely wasn't as bad as the Kapanen hit as far as Roenick having a hard time getting back to the bench.

I remember this hit too...Roenick was behind the net and dazed on his feet.  But it wasn't in the same game.  This was in Game #1 or #2 of the series (I've also been trying to find it online to no avail...but I specifically remember the hit)

Yeah, it was a big hit.  Thanks for confirming it because some people think because they can't remember it, that it didn't happen.  :

It was a while ago, but I remember being pissed because he came back after such a big hit and scored a goal leading to them winning.  Perhaps it wasn't the winning goal but he did come back to hurt them in some way.

 

[Kin]

So you got the year wrong, the game wrong, the series wrong, the fact that it was the game winning goal wrong and even your main point that the concussion protocol would have changed things wrong(the goal was in the start of the second period and the hit at 19:00 with left in the first so there's at least an hour between the goal and the hit) but other people are at fault for thinking that you might be somewhat confused about what you're remembering? Nobody said "Darcy Tucker never checked Jeremy Roenick in the playoffs" just that what you described never happened.

 

[TML fan]

Two wrongs make Nik right

 

[Kin]

Two wrongs make Nik right

I don't know about two but I'm pretty sure five wrongs leave it in a pretty grey area.

 

[jonlleafs]

Two wrongs make Nik right

Yeah, because the hit never happened.  :

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Remember when just a month ago Burke said there were lots of deals in the works and there was a "very remote possibility this is the same team we go into training camp with" ? I do, and im also observing absolutely nothing has changed. I presume very little if anything will change prior to training camp.

Burke fired before, or after xmas break ?

Man, and to think there's been so many deals to be made and so many moves being made by the other 29 GM's around the league. (insert little rollie eyes smilie here)

 

[Kin]

Man, and to think there's been so many deals to be made and so many moves being made by the other 29 GM's around the league. (insert little rollie eyes smilie here)

To be fair though the question Burke was responding to came after the two week span where a ton of stuff did happen and the question was sort of phrased like "Lots of stuff hasn't been going on, when are the Leafs going to make their moves?" so the fact that nothing much has gone on since then would seem to indicate that the point of the question, that it seems as though the Leafs have missed the boat a little, seems accurate in light of the dearth of movement since.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Man, and to think there's been so many deals to be made and so many moves being made by the other 29 GM's around the league. (insert little rollie eyes smilie here)

To be fair though the question Burke was responding to came after the two week span where a ton of stuff did happen and the question was sort of phrased like "Lots of stuff hasn't been going on, when are the Leafs going to make their moves?" so the fact that nothing much has gone on since then would seem to indicate that the point of the question, that it seems as though the Leafs have missed the boat a little, seems accurate in light of the dearth of movement since.

Well, to be fair, what action would you(an obviously intelligent leaf fan) of had Burke made.

 

[Kin]

Well, to be fair, what action would you(an obviously intelligent leaf fan) of had Burke made.

You mean, what hypothetical move would I have made this last month if I were in Burke's shoes or what would I have done differently than Burke for the entire offseason? I ask because I don't think there's a fair answer either way. The first question can't really be answered without knowing what's available but also isn't really the point of the criticism and the second question isn't necessarily fair to Burke.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Well, to be fair, what action would you(an obviously intelligent leaf fan) of had Burke made.

You mean, what hypothetical move would I have made this last month if I were in Burke's shoes or what would I have done differently than Burke for the entire offseason? I ask because I don't think there's a fair answer either way. The first question can't really be answered without knowing what's available but also isn't really the point of the criticism and the second question isn't necessarily fair to Burke.

And what is the point of the criticism? Perhaps I'm missing something.

I believe a lot of Leaf fans are upset that the Leafs didn't get Parise. Didn't get Suter. Didn't go after Weber. Didn't trade for Ryan. Didn't trade for Nash. Haven't traded for Luongo yet. This is why I think Leaf fans are ripping Burke a new one which IMHO isn't fair to Burke as all those trades/signings did not include the Leafs as possible destinations...except for Luongo, which is a whole other ball of wax.

 

[Kin]

And what is the point of the criticism? Perhaps I'm missing something.

That the better time to address the needs of the club would have been in the lead-up to the draft and the immediate start of the free agency period. That by not making the moves in those more active periods Burke had missed the boat. That there's been little activity since then is sort of the basis for the criticism.

I believe a lot of Leaf fans are upset that the Leafs didn't get Parise. Didn't get Suter. Didn't go after Weber. Didn't trade for Ryan. Didn't trade for Nash. Haven't traded for Luongo yet. This is why I think Leaf fans are ripping Burke a new one which IMHO isn't fair to Burke as all those trades/signings did not include the Leafs as possible destinations...except for Luongo, which is a whole other ball of wax.

I'd stop you there because that's what I was talking about in terms of not being able to fairly guess at the unknown. It's just as unreasonable to dismiss things as impossible as it is to say that Burke could have done some of those things for sure. Nash apparently wouldn't waive to Toronto so it's fair to say that was a trade that wasn't possible but there's no concrete way to say what would have happened if the Leafs were aggressive in areas that they ended up not being. We don't know what is really the situation with Ryan or what might have happened if Burke offered Weber even more money than Philly did so it's pointless to use it either to take shots at Burke or to defend him. We don't know, so it's grounds for speculation but that's it.

I think that, looking at it now, that if Burke's plan really was to add a veteran goaltender and the reports of the Vokoun deal not happening because Burke didn't want to go two years on him are right then that was probably a misstep. Right now it looks like the only real option to add a veteran goaltender of any real skill is Luongo and that's an option a lot of people don't want to take. That strikes me as a fair criticism as a specific. In the wider, general sense, there's a legitimate discussion to be had on what Burke's done, regardless of when he's done it, this off-season and, as I said, I don't think a good defense of that is trying to state with certainty that we know what hypothetical moves are or aren't possible.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

In the wider, general sense, there's a legitimate discussion to be had on what Burke's done, regardless of when he's done it, this off-season and, as I said, I don't think a good defense of that is trying to state with certainty that we know what hypothetical moves are or aren't possible.

You got me there, and you are correct that we are all speaking hypothetically.

As for Vokoun not being added....Whether it was a misstep or not is to be seen over the next two years. He was the guy I wanted on the team, but alas it didn't happen.

As for criticism of the moves Burke made in the past, it's definitely open for discussion. There aren't too many sports fans that are completely happy with their GM's. Burke has made some sketchy decisions in his time here. He's also made some good ones.

I've been a supporter of Burke's for the simple fact that I think this team is in a better place now than when he stepped in. That being said, year after year of not being in the playoffs is wearing on me and i'm sure many other Burke supporters.

 

[rdowdall]

In the wider, general sense, there's a legitimate discussion to be had on what Burke's done, regardless of when he's done it, this off-season and, as I said, I don't think a good defense of that is trying to state with certainty that we know what hypothetical moves are or aren't possible.

You got me there, and you are correct that we are all speaking hypothetically.

As for Vokoun not being added....Whether it was a misstep or not is to be seen over the next two years. He was the guy I wanted on the team, but alas it didn't happen.

As for criticism of the moves Burke made in the past, it's definitely open for discussion. There aren't too many sports fans that are completely happy with their GM's. Burke has made some sketchy decisions in his time here. He's also made some good ones.

I've been a supporter of Burke's for the simple fact that I think this team is in a better place now than when he stepped in. That being said, year after year of not being in the playoffs is wearing on me and i'm sure many other Burke supporters.

I think that is hard to justify.  The big club has not had any sort of success since he has been here, so that is one strike against him.  People point to prospect pool as being improved, but that is also hard to quantify as a lot of times people point to prospects that were actually brought in under JFJ and Fletcher.  He may have drafted some good players, but there isn't any real proof that his drafting is going to yield valuable NHL'ers.  Also I think the lack of a real elite level prospect within the system is a detriment to the Leafs going forward.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I've been a supporter of Burke's for the simple fact that I think this team is in a better place now than when he stepped in. That being said, year after year of not being in the playoffs is wearing on me and i'm sure many other Burke supporters.

I think that is hard to justify.  The big club has not had any sort of success since he has been here, so that is one strike against him.  People point to prospect pool as being improved, but that is also hard to quantify as a lot of times people point to prospects that were actually brought in under JFJ and Fletcher.  He may have drafted some good players, but there isn't any real proof that his drafting is going to yield valuable NHL'ers.  Also I think the lack of a real elite level prospect within the system is a detriment to the Leafs going forward.

Which is why I stated 'I think'...not 'Everyone Knows'.

 

[nutman]

The leaf system as a whole is much better since Burke has took over. if we dont make the playoffs this season then I will be off his banwaggon. of course I believe we will be in this team will be one year older and better.

 

[rdowdall]

I've been a supporter of Burke's for the simple fact that I think this team is in a better place now than when he stepped in. That being said, year after year of not being in the playoffs is wearing on me and i'm sure many other Burke supporters.

I think that is hard to justify.  The big club has not had any sort of success since he has been here, so that is one strike against him.  People point to prospect pool as being improved, but that is also hard to quantify as a lot of times people point to prospects that were actually brought in under JFJ and Fletcher.  He may have drafted some good players, but there isn't any real proof that his drafting is going to yield valuable NHL'ers.  Also I think the lack of a real elite level prospect within the system is a detriment to the Leafs going forward.

Which is why I stated 'I think'...not 'Everyone Knows'.

Which is why I replied with "I think".

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I've been a supporter of Burke's for the simple fact that I think this team is in a better place now than when he stepped in. That being said, year after year of not being in the playoffs is wearing on me and i'm sure many other Burke supporters.

I think that is hard to justify.  The big club has not had any sort of success since he has been here, so that is one strike against him.  People point to prospect pool as being improved, but that is also hard to quantify as a lot of times people point to prospects that were actually brought in under JFJ and Fletcher.  He may have drafted some good players, but there isn't any real proof that his drafting is going to yield valuable NHL'ers.  Also I think the lack of a real elite level prospect within the system is a detriment to the Leafs going forward.

Which is why I stated 'I think'...not 'Everyone Knows'.

Which is why I replied with "I think".

What 'you think' doesn't really apply to what 'I think'.

 

[rdowdall]

The leaf system as a whole is much better since Burke has took over. if we dont make the playoffs this season then I will be off his banwaggon. of course I believe we will be in this team will be one year older and better.

Here is my problem with that line of thinking.  It's a whole lot better in part because the prospects that were drafted by the regiment before him have developed.  Burke shouldn't get credit for that, and when you couple that with the poor showings of the big club, that drags down his overall performance as the Leafs GM to date. 

 

[rdowdall]

I've been a supporter of Burke's for the simple fact that I think this team is in a better place now than when he stepped in. That being said, year after year of not being in the playoffs is wearing on me and i'm sure many other Burke supporters.

I think that is hard to justify.  The big club has not had any sort of success since he has been here, so that is one strike against him.  People point to prospect pool as being improved, but that is also hard to quantify as a lot of times people point to prospects that were actually brought in under JFJ and Fletcher.  He may have drafted some good players, but there isn't any real proof that his drafting is going to yield valuable NHL'ers.  Also I think the lack of a real elite level prospect within the system is a detriment to the Leafs going forward.

Which is why I stated 'I think'...not 'Everyone Knows'.

Which is why I replied with "I think".

What 'you think' doesn't really apply to what 'I think'.

I see.  So they don't have counter arguments in your world?

 

[nutman]

The leaf system as a whole is much better since Burke has took over. if we dont make the playoffs this season then I will be off his banwaggon. of course I believe we will be in this team will be one year older and better.

Here is my problem with that line of thinking.  It's a whole lot better in part because the prospects that were drafted by the regiment before him have developed.  Burke shouldn't get credit for that, and when you couple that with the poor showings of the big club, that drags down his overall performance as the Leafs GM to date.

And the players he has added dont count, come on wake up. as for the system his draft picks are comming along that takes time. as for the big club its on the verge of stepping up big time, and just because your to blind to see it I am not going to hold your hand and point it out every time you get depressed because we arn't champs yet.
I still stand by that coaching was our biggest hole last season, and it showed just as the players steped it up all over the NHL Wilson could not get his guys to do the same. and that is when the free fall started. Burke knows he held onto him to long. watch them know the players and what they can do, and you will see this tem is on the up.