Can the Leafs Beat Boston?

[slapshot]

Just a PS on this. I think Reimer is or will be just as good as Rask, if not better.

PPS: Sequin is a fine player no doubt, but I still think Kessel is the more dangerous of the two.

 

[L K]

Some teams just don't play well against a certain team.

The only concerning thing I have about that is the Leafs haven't been a great team against Buffalo either.  You really are shooting yourself in the foot if the teams you don't play well against are both in your division as proportionally, that's going to add up to a much bigger hurt than say struggling against Pittsburgh.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Some teams just don't play well against a certain team.

The only concerning thing I have about that is the Leafs haven't been a great team against Buffalo either.  You really are shooting yourself in the foot if the teams you don't play well against are both in your division as proportionally, that's going to add up to a much bigger hurt than say struggling against Pittsburgh.

Well we don't really know how they are against Buffalo.  They were 4-2 (I think) against basically the same Boston team last season and now can't beat them.  So who knows how they will do against Buffalo, after they managed to win some games against them last season, too.

 

[ZBBM]

I think CW basically nailed it in yesterday Game Day thread, by putting things in perspective - the Leafs should not be compared at this point to the Stanley Cup champs. A couple of points re: Bruins and Leafs:

1. Bruins, keep in mind they also destroyed the Canucks in a couple of games during last year's playoffs, and they were the league's best team through the season, with a highly experienced Vezina nominee goaltender. But essentially the issue was the same. The Bruins had more toughness to "go with" the skill, along with better goaltending. The Canucks led by the Sedins and Kesler, were no match physically for Chara, Lucic and the of the physical Bruins.

2. The Leafs. There is a consensus building, and rightly, so that the Leafs need to add more turculence, testosterone and physically to their line-up, to "go with" their skill to go to the next level (I think we all agree they are up a level from where they were. But the kind of guys they need don't exactly grow on trees, and teams that have them aren't exactly giving them away. However, Burke knows this - and you can bet WANTS THIS - that's why he is trying to find this piece "in the draft." Brad Ross is considered a Tucker like player (though probably a bit overwhelmed by his first camp) went back is have a fine years in junior. Also, check out this assessment from thehockeywriters.com...

"While Tyler may not be a number five guy, he does bring value as a number fifteen guy (Bob MacKenzie?s scout consensus) because he is one of those players who can determine the outcome of a hockey game and determine it early because of his demolition derby style of play backed up by NHL power forward size and strength. All you have to do is look at the Stanley Cup Finals where all the games were won by the team scoring the first goal and generally by the team outmuscling the opposition. Would Vancouver Canucks have won the Stanley Cup if they had a seasoned version of Tyler Biggs in the lineup? Would Vancouver have got by the Chicago Black Hawks if Chicago had a seasoned Tyler Biggs in their lineup? A lot of NHL General Managers would probably answer ?no? to both questions which is why Tyler Biggs is rated so highly in this year?s draft."
You should read the whole profile at...

http://thehockeywriters.com/tyler-biggs-leafs-prospectprofil/

The NHL comparable projections they use are actually Lucic and Dustin Brown.

So you can see that Burke knows the right mix has to be in place. Leaf fans are just going to have to be a bit more patient - tough to say after what 44 years (I saw the last win personally, so I know how agonizing it is). I am confident we will get there in the next couple of years and Leaf fans will be loving it in the playoffs.
The Bruins will have their injury and free agent issues eventually, and Rask will have to show he's a big game performer like Thomas soon.
People go on about the Kessel deal, but the Rask one actually bugs be more. We got a star player in Kessel, and absolutely nothing for Rask.
As for last night, I think having Armstrong, Komisarek and Orr in the line-up (please send Dupuis to the Marlies) wouldn't have helped. Wouldn't it have made the difference? Probably not, but a little push back would have been in order.

Excellent post Slapshot.  I think Burke has modified his master plan somewhat (and he seems to have admitted as much in recent interviews) by balancing his truculence formula with speed.

You aren't going to find a Chara anywhere but you might find a Lucic, and maybe Biggs will be ours.  Anyway, that's the type of player we need right now, and if I were spending assets now I'd be inclined to spend them on that type of player rather than, say, a Ryan.

 

[cw]

I think CW basically nailed it in yesterday Game Day thread, by putting things in perspective - the Leafs should not be compared at this point to the Stanley Cup champs. A couple of points re: Bruins and Leafs:

1. Bruins, keep in mind they also destroyed the Canucks in a couple of games during last year's playoffs, and they were the league's best team through the season, with a highly experienced Vezina nominee goaltender. But essentially the issue was the same. The Bruins had more toughness to "go with" the skill, along with better goaltending. The Canucks led by the Sedins and Kesler, were no match physically for Chara, Lucic and the of the physical Bruins.

2. The Leafs. There is a consensus building, and rightly, so that the Leafs need to add more turculence, testosterone and physically to their line-up, to "go with" their skill to go to the next level (I think we all agree they are up a level from where they were. But the kind of guys they need don't exactly grow on trees, and teams that have them aren't exactly giving them away. However, Burke knows this - and you can bet WANTS THIS - that's why he is trying to find this piece "in the draft." Brad Ross is considered a Tucker like player (though probably a bit overwhelmed by his first camp) went back is have a fine years in junior. Also, check out this assessment from thehockeywriters.com...

"While Tyler may not be a number five guy, he does bring value as a number fifteen guy (Bob MacKenzie?s scout consensus) because he is one of those players who can determine the outcome of a hockey game and determine it early because of his demolition derby style of play backed up by NHL power forward size and strength. All you have to do is look at the Stanley Cup Finals where all the games were won by the team scoring the first goal and generally by the team outmuscling the opposition. Would Vancouver Canucks have won the Stanley Cup if they had a seasoned version of Tyler Biggs in the lineup? Would Vancouver have got by the Chicago Black Hawks if Chicago had a seasoned Tyler Biggs in their lineup? A lot of NHL General Managers would probably answer ?no? to both questions which is why Tyler Biggs is rated so highly in this year?s draft."
You should read the whole profile at...

http://thehockeywriters.com/tyler-biggs-leafs-prospectprofil/

The NHL comparable projections they use are actually Lucic and Dustin Brown.

So you can see that Burke knows the right mix has to be in place. Leaf fans are just going to have to be a bit more patient - tough to say after what 44 years (I saw the last win personally, so I know how agonizing it is). I am confident we will get there in the next couple of years and Leaf fans will be loving it in the playoffs.
The Bruins will have their injury and free agent issues eventually, and Rask will have to show he's a big game performer like Thomas soon.
People go on about the Kessel deal, but the Rask one actually bugs be more. We got a star player in Kessel, and absolutely nothing for Rask.
As for last night, I think having Armstrong, Komisarek and Orr in the line-up (please send Dupuis to the Marlies) wouldn't have helped. Wouldn't it have made the difference? Probably not, but a little push back would have been in order.

Excellent post Slapshot.  I think Burke has modified his master plan somewhat (and he seems to have admitted as much in recent interviews) by balancing his truculence formula with speed.

You aren't going to find a Chara anywhere but you might find a Lucic, and maybe Biggs will be ours.  Anyway, that's the type of player we need right now, and if I were spending assets now I'd be inclined to spend them on that type of player rather than, say, a Ryan.

I don't think it would have changed last night's outcome but having guys like Armstrong, Brown, Komisarek & because Brown would be in that lineup, maybe Rosehill for Dupuis, would have helped the grit match up. They did get pushed around and lost puck battles more without those guys.

It's the top 6 and down the middle (aside from Steckel) where they're really light on that though. Kessel-Bozak is going to struggle against those guys physically. So is MacArthur-Connolly. Kessel-Getzlaf or Kessel-Thornton isn't going to struggle as much. Those are the type of players Burke would love to have but nobody's been giving them away so Burke has had to take what the market has given him.

It was the youngest lineup in the NHL against the defending Cup champs.

This team is somewhat reminiscent of Quinn's '98-99 club. We saw a similar thing against the Sabres in those '99 playoffs. Roberts, Corson, Tucker, Nolan, etc got added to toughen them up.

Finding good sized, tough players who can skate and score is not easy in this league.

 

[rdowdall]

I think CW basically nailed it in yesterday Game Day thread, by putting things in perspective - the Leafs should not be compared at this point to the Stanley Cup champs. A couple of points re: Bruins and Leafs:

1. Bruins, keep in mind they also destroyed the Canucks in a couple of games during last year's playoffs, and they were the league's best team through the season, with a highly experienced Vezina nominee goaltender. But essentially the issue was the same. The Bruins had more toughness to "go with" the skill, along with better goaltending. The Canucks led by the Sedins and Kesler, were no match physically for Chara, Lucic and the of the physical Bruins.

2. The Leafs. There is a consensus building, and rightly, so that the Leafs need to add more turculence, testosterone and physically to their line-up, to "go with" their skill to go to the next level (I think we all agree they are up a level from where they were. But the kind of guys they need don't exactly grow on trees, and teams that have them aren't exactly giving them away. However, Burke knows this - and you can bet WANTS THIS - that's why he is trying to find this piece "in the draft." Brad Ross is considered a Tucker like player (though probably a bit overwhelmed by his first camp) went back is have a fine years in junior. Also, check out this assessment from thehockeywriters.com...

"While Tyler may not be a number five guy, he does bring value as a number fifteen guy (Bob MacKenzie?s scout consensus) because he is one of those players who can determine the outcome of a hockey game and determine it early because of his demolition derby style of play backed up by NHL power forward size and strength. All you have to do is look at the Stanley Cup Finals where all the games were won by the team scoring the first goal and generally by the team outmuscling the opposition. Would Vancouver Canucks have won the Stanley Cup if they had a seasoned version of Tyler Biggs in the lineup? Would Vancouver have got by the Chicago Black Hawks if Chicago had a seasoned Tyler Biggs in their lineup? A lot of NHL General Managers would probably answer ?no? to both questions which is why Tyler Biggs is rated so highly in this year?s draft."
You should read the whole profile at...

http://thehockeywriters.com/tyler-biggs-leafs-prospectprofil/

The NHL comparable projections they use are actually Lucic and Dustin Brown.

So you can see that Burke knows the right mix has to be in place. Leaf fans are just going to have to be a bit more patient - tough to say after what 44 years (I saw the last win personally, so I know how agonizing it is). I am confident we will get there in the next couple of years and Leaf fans will be loving it in the playoffs.
The Bruins will have their injury and free agent issues eventually, and Rask will have to show he's a big game performer like Thomas soon.
People go on about the Kessel deal, but the Rask one actually bugs be more. We got a star player in Kessel, and absolutely nothing for Rask.
As for last night, I think having Armstrong, Komisarek and Orr in the line-up (please send Dupuis to the Marlies) wouldn't have helped. Wouldn't it have made the difference? Probably not, but a little push back would have been in order.

Excellent post Slapshot.  I think Burke has modified his master plan somewhat (and he seems to have admitted as much in recent interviews) by balancing his truculence formula with speed.

You aren't going to find a Chara anywhere but you might find a Lucic, and maybe Biggs will be ours.  Anyway, that's the type of player we need right now, and if I were spending assets now I'd be inclined to spend them on that type of player rather than, say, a Ryan.

I don't think it would have changed last night's outcome but having guys like Armstrong, Brown, Komisarek & because Brown would be in that lineup, maybe Rosehill for Dupuis, would have helped the grit match up. They did get pushed around and lost puck battles more without those guys.

It's the top 6 and down the middle (aside from Steckel) where they're really light on that though. Kessel-Bozak is going to struggle against those guys physically. So is MacArthur-Connolly. Kessel-Getzlaf or Kessel-Thornton isn't going to struggle as much. Those are the type of players Burke would love to have but nobody's been giving them away so Burke has had to take what the market has given him.

It was the youngest lineup in the NHL against the defending Cup champs.

This team is somewhat reminiscent of Quinn's '98-99 club. We saw a similar thing against the Sabres in those '99 playoffs. Roberts, Corson, Tucker, Nolan, etc got added to toughen them up.

Finding good sized, tough players who can skate and score is not easy in this league.

Hopefully the Leafs have drafted a couple in Biggs and Ross.

 

[Kin]

I really don't get all the hand-wringing here. Were people under the impression that the Leafs are a finished product? If so, yeah, it'd be distressing that they couldn't beat Boston in 4 shots but as is it really just highlighted something that I think most of us knew; that the Leafs have a ways to go before they're an elite contender. They need more size, they need more skill and they need better defenders.

You could call it a wake up call, I guess, but I really don't think anyone was dreaming that the Leafs are where they need to be.

 

[cw]

Bruins get back to defensive basics vs. Leafs

Not a bad write up by Bruins media Joe Haggerty on what the Bs have been doing to stop our Leafs.

A team has a couple of general choices when facing the Bruins:
a) beat them at their own game
b) beat them playing your own game

The Leafs don't have the physical players for option "a" .. yet and that's not likely to happen this season.

How the Leafs could improve transition:
During the game, a commentator observed the Bruins coming out with short passes. The Leafs can do this. I complimented them on it in a game against the Rangers (I think?) earlier this season. It's hard to see on the angles we get watching the game but on overhead view would reveal what the Bruins are doing and the Leafs forwards should go where the Bruins are typically not when the Leafs have the puck. Easier said than done but the concept is right. And then they bring the puck up the ice as a unit. They didn't do it last night. But they can do it. It won't work every time but it will work more frequently than trying to make a dman hit a long pass because he misses too often = turnover.

Breaking the Bruins cycle:
Maybe I'm out of touch. Quinn's teams used to do this as well. Why do they let the Bruins cycle endlessly? You don't have to be as big as the other player (to fear the physical mismatch) to angle a puck carrier into the boards and take him out or start a puck battle. Puck battles are like faceoffs - close to a 50/50 thing. Even if you lose more than you win, at least you have a slightly less than 50/50 chance to break the cycle. If you stay on the D side of the player, you aren't exposing your team to an odd man situation. When a team is running around, I don't know why the Leafs don't do this more and sooner into their shifts. At the very least, even if a player loses the battle, the rhythm of the cycle is broken and often opposing players have to stop skating or slow down and it helps get your mates, who tend to be standing around, skating for the outcome of the puck battle.

Momentum from changes:
Too often, the Leafs dumped it in an went for a wholesale change. The opponent has all kinds of time to get organized and come out of their zone. Because they're organized, there's a better chance they'll work the puck back into the Leafs zone. If they cycle and the Leafs don't cut that off sooner rather than later, the whole thing repeats when the Leafs shoot the puck into the opponents zone and head off for a wholesale change. And the momentum carries on. Sometimes, due to fatigue, this can't be helped. But some of their changes last night kind of sucked in this regard and it didn't always seem to happen when it had to.

Going to the net
The Leafs have been much better about going to the net this season than they were last. I swear that it's one of the big reasons their scoring has improved. They were terrible at it last night. Watch their PPs for example. You aren't going to score against Thomas or Rask very often doing that.

The Leafs may not have a roster as good as the Bruins but I can't help but feel there are ways to improve their performance against these guys without even having to change the roster.

I'm sure I could come up with five more.

Easier said than done I guess.

 

[WAYNEINIONA]

The Habs are 2-1 this year against the Bruins and they're smaller up front than we are. We have to learn to use our speed effectively.

 

[cw]

The Habs are 2-1 this year against the Bruins and they're smaller up front than we are. We have to learn to use our speed effectively.

To place some perspective on that, the Bruins were still in their Cup hangover. And Price was 1st and 2nd star in those games.

In their first 10 games of the season, the Bruins scored four or more goals twice.

In the 14 games since, the Bruins offence exploded and has failed to score 4 goals or more only three times, losing only one of those games in a shootout against the Wings.

 

[rdowdall]

I really don't get all the hand-wringing here. Were people under the impression that the Leafs are a finished product? If so, yeah, it'd be distressing that they couldn't beat Boston in 4 shots but as is it really just highlighted something that I think most of us knew; that the Leafs have a ways to go before they're an elite contender. They need more size, they need more skill and they need better defenders.

You could call it a wake up call, I guess, but I really don't think anyone was dreaming that the Leafs are where they need to be.

Maybe not so much hand wringing, but more of a we need to do such and such to get better. I think people got excited with the start and expected the Leafs to be an elite team throughout the year.  I thought there would be a progression throughout the year, so they have sort of exceeded my expectations to date.  Of course if they tail off and finish 15th in the conference then they will have done the reverse of what I expected.

It would be nice if the hockey gods would smile upon the team most of us cheer for though and allow us to destroy Boston once this season.  Even better if Kessel is the plunger that ignites the dynamite.     

 

[princedpw]

2. The Leafs. There is a consensus building, and rightly, so that the Leafs need to add more turculence, testosterone and physically to their line-up, to "go with" their skill to go to the next level ... Ross ... Tyler Biggs ...

I don't believe that guys like Ross or Biggs or Lucic v. 2.0 are the big difference.  I think Chara's the big difference.  Why?  It's because people can't score against him.  He's just so good at defence, at preventing people from scoring while he is on the ice and he plays 1/2 the game.  If you leave the teams alone except that Chara switches sides, the Leafs win.  The bruins beat Vancouver because Vancouver's biggest strength is the Sedins and they are great at cycling, but Chara is just that much better at breaking the cycle.

How good defensively is Weber?  Can we trade Schenn and Maccarthur and replace their cap space with Weber and Kadri next year?

 

[ZBBM]

I don't see hand-wringing; I see analyzing how far we still have to go.

 

[Optimus Reimer]

Looking back at the Bruins since the lockout struggled the first two seasons after the lockout, but since then have been in the playoffs.  Their strengths are speed, size, goaltending and skill.

The Leafs in terms of quality of players has dramatically improved over the past few years.  They have speed and skill.  Goaltending looks like it will be there with Reimer and the Monster, but has not been proven.  Just because the Leafs had half a season of great goaltending does not guarantee that the Leafs will have long term great goaltending, but the outlook is very promising.  If the Leafs can add some size and physical toughness up front, then the Leafs will be able to contend with teams like Philly and Boston.  Until then, the Leafs should win a round or two in the playoffs, depending on their matchups, and that is about all we can expect right now. 

One thing I do expect to see is Burke making a trade or two in the new year to address the lack of size up front.

 

[nutman]

Remember the sens a few years back, we could not beat them all season then came the playoffs and we owned them. this happened more then once with them. so i dont care for now that we cant beat the Bruins.