Capitals @ Leafs - Nov. 28th, 7:00pm - CBC, Fan 590

[MetalRaven]

Yeah I just tried to change that. Read it wrong. He still needs to bail the defense out on occasion...which he hasn't done in this game. I've seen plays similar to that before...any other goaltender and thats a save.

That's absolute nonsense.

In your opinion. I've seen it happen...multiple times. From many goaltenders. He tightens up that mile wide 5 hole and that doesn't go in...he puts his stick in the 5 hole...that doesn't go in...this wasn't Crosby with an insane deke...it was a weak 5 hole goal. I can't even speak to the last 2 goals...they were scored while I was typing my defense that he let in a weak one. I do admit though, and im sure even Reilly would back me up, that Reilly screwed up...and no Reilly screw up, no goal...But despite what you might think most people don't think expecting a bailout from your goaltender to be 'nonsense'.

 

[Kin]

In your opinion. I've seen it happen...multiple times. From many goaltenders. He tightens up that mile wide 5 hole and that doesn't go in...he puts his stick in the 5 hole...that doesn't go in...this wasn't Crosby with an insane deke...it was a weak 5 hole goal.

Again, nobody has said that this was a save that would have been physically impossible. Pointing out the ways it could have happened doesn't change anything. It's a save that could have been made but not one that it's reasonable to always expect a goalie to make and certainly not one that every single other goalie in the league would make every single time. Lots of goalies look bad on goals where their defensemen make abjectly terrible giveaways because they're not expecting to have to make a save in that situation, something that clearly happened here. I've seen that happen multiple times with multiple goalies, some of which are in the hall of fame.

That goal was on Rielly. Full stop.

 

[ZBBM]

Bernier's confidence is in shambles.  It's too bad he can't go down to the Marlies for a mental conditioning stint.  He needs a string of games to try to work his problems out and unless Reimer is gone long-term he's not going to get it from Babcock.

 

[MetalRaven]

That goal was on Rielly. Full stop.

Now implying that Bernier is immune to criticism because Reilly made a mistake...thats nonsense.

 

[MetalRaven]

I love Cage the Elephant. Just learned to play No rest for the wicked

 

[Kin]

Now implying that Bernier is immune to criticism because Reilly made a mistake...thats nonsense.

Which I'm not doing. What I'm saying is you can't separate the circumstances that led to the shot from the reaction to the shot. If Rielly doesn't make a giveaway a pee-wee player would be embarrassed to make, Bernier isn't as caught off guard.

 

[MetalRaven]

Now implying that Bernier is immune to criticism because Reilly made a mistake...thats nonsense.

Which I'm not doing. What I'm saying is you can't separate the circumstances that led to the shot from the reaction to the shot. If Rielly doesn't make a giveaway a pee-wee player would be embarrassed to make, Bernier isn't as caught off guard.

I never separated the reaction from what lead to it. I stated it right at the beginning. Its very possible to have two things go wrong at once. Like Reilly just screwing up hard core and then Bernier letting in a soft goal. I believe in this case that he did indeed give up a soft goal, taking everything into consideration. You argue that the save was harder then im giving it credit for because he was surprised by a crappy giveaway. I argue he could have reacted in many other ways that wouldn't have left such a big gap in the 5 hole. So to me because of his positioning and reaction, it was weak.

I seem to remember these arguments before about what constitutes a "big save" and how many we should get from an average goaltender.

 

[Kin]

I never separated the reaction from what lead to it. I stated it right at the beginning. Its very possible to have two things go wrong at once. Like Reilly just screwing up hard core and then Bernier letting in a soft goal. I believe in this case that he did indeed give up a soft goal, taking everything into consideration. You argue that the save was harder then im giving it credit for because he was surprised by a crappy giveaway. I argue he could have reacted in many other ways that wouldn't have left such a big gap in the 5 hole. So to me because of his positioning and reaction, it was weak.

Again, arguing that it was possible for Bernier to make the save isn't a counterpoint to my saying that you're not accurately taking into account the surprise of the situation.

I'm not just saying the save was harder, I'm saying that the circumstances contribute to a goalie looking poorly prepared and out of sorts on the play. So, yes, Bernier did look poorly prepared and out of sorts. You said, flat out, that no other goalie would have done the same. That's just not true.

 

[MetalRaven]

I never separated the reaction from what lead to it. I stated it right at the beginning. Its very possible to have two things go wrong at once. Like Reilly just screwing up hard core and then Bernier letting in a soft goal. I believe in this case that he did indeed give up a soft goal, taking everything into consideration. You argue that the save was harder then im giving it credit for because he was surprised by a crappy giveaway. I argue he could have reacted in many other ways that wouldn't have left such a big gap in the 5 hole. So to me because of his positioning and reaction, it was weak.

Again, arguing that it was possible for Bernier to make the save isn't a counterpoint to my saying that you're not accurately taking into account the surprise of the situation.

I'm not just saying the save was harder, I'm saying that the circumstances contribute to a goalie looking poorly prepared and out of sorts on the play. So, yes, Bernier did look poorly prepared and out of sorts. You said, flat out, that no other goalie would have done the same. That's just not true.

That was a flippant, exaggerated point.  If you would like to get pedantic I said "any other goaltender and thats a save" not "No other goalie would have done the same" I didn't think I had to watch my words so much. I don't. I give people who read my posts more credit then that.  Im pretty sure the rest of the board understood it was an exaggeration. Im pretty sure you did too.

"you're not accurately taking into account the surprise of the situation. " Excuse me? I have stated on multiple occasions that I am aware of the surprise of the situation. Why don't you tell me how to accurately do it. Should I have said 74.874% of goaltenders would have made that save? Does that somehow make the GDT any better? If no one is able to post an opinion on a message board without it degenerating to a ridiculous level its no wonder this place has been anemic lately. Thanks for the great night Nik, I look forward to never participating in a GDT again.

 

[Kin]

Why don't you tell me how to accurately do it.

I would say to the point where, somehow, Bernier isn't the primary focus of criticism on that goal should do it.

 

[MetalRaven]

Why don't you tell me how to accurately do it.

I would say to the point where, somehow, Bernier isn't the primary focus of criticism on that goal should do it.

You have got to be kidding me.

"I think Reillys error was obvious...everyone knows he blew it."
"I do admit though, and im sure even Reilly would back me up, that Reilly screwed up...and no Reilly screw up, no goal..."
"Now implying that Bernier is immune to criticism because Reilly made a mistake"
"I stated it right at the beginning. Its very possible to have two things go wrong at once. Like Reilly just screwing up hard core and then Bernier letting in a soft goal."

At no point did I say he was the primary person at fault. Simply that he shares the blame.
A point I thought I made over and over again and clearly.
Reilly isn't going to be as crucified as Bernier simply because he doesn't make glaring errors like that often. Bernier has let in too many softies at this point to be given the benefit of the doubt.

Now are you done putting words in my mouth? I said four (4) times that Reilly shares blame. Not once have I ever even given the idea that Bernier is the one primarily at fault. Seriously your argument at this point is weak. I stated an opinion, you disagree. You haven't moved me from my stance and I haven't moved you on yours. So unless you absolutely need the last word, im dropping this.

 

[Kin]

Reilly isn't going to be as crucified as Bernier simply because he doesn't make glaring errors like that often.

It's not about crucifying anyone. It's about properly apportioning blame for a goal which is pretty clearly Rielly's fault. That Bernier could have conceivably played better on a play he wouldn't have been asked to make with even vaguely competent defending misses the point of the play entirely.

But, more to the point, I think you've hit on the larger issue. Bernier hasn't played all that well this year, Rielly's been good. I think you're letting that colour your perception of that play. Like I said, I could make the exact same argument you're making re: Bernier here on most goals that get scored in the NHL. The goalie could have had it if he'd A, B or C. That tends to be true on goals.

But because Bernier's not been very good, people lose their minds and their perspectives on goals that really aren't his fault. Leafs fans love a scapegoat, Bernier's who some people are unreasonably focusing on.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Bernier's confidence is in shambles.  It's too bad he can't go down to the Marlies for a mental conditioning stint.  He needs a string of games to try to work his problems out and unless Reimer is gone long-term he's not going to get it from Babcock.

I get the impression that Bernier doesn't care to remain a Leaf anymore.  After being signed up this year, he seems to have hit a snag and can't seem to disentangle himself from it.

Mental conditioning or not, this guy just doesn't seem to have it this year to win.  Save for some brilliant saves he's made throughout his starts, he's been largely inconsistent and unfocused.  What gives?

 

[Highlander]

I don't think it is surprise at all. Bernier has had some hard luck but has not made lemonade out of the lemons he has been dealt, such as playing on completely porous defensive teams of Carlyle the last two years and having to make over 40 stops game in and game out.
Nearing the end of last season (and I am not making this up), he admits to a lack of mental toughness, something he had to work on. Guess he didnt head to the right school for MT lessons.
My viewpoint is even though all players especially goalies may go thru some rough patches they do tend to bounce back fairly quickly or get discarded completely like Vesa, Raycoft and Justin P to some degree.
I think you are going to see Bernier dumped on the same heap in the not to distant future. I just don't see him rebounding or stopping the rebounds.  You have to have mental toughness earlier than 26 in this game, I don't believe it is magically going to be developed later in life.
Unless he happens to bump into a goalie coach named "Yoda" and that is movie stuff