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Captain Phaneuf

Hampreacher said:
Not every player is going to be a Bobby Orr or a Scott Stevens nor should we expect them to be.
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Yeah, you're right. It's over-critical fans who don't have perspective.
 
Hampreacher said:
Part of the reason that leafs cannot sign top flight free agents are their over critical fans. Given what and who Phaneuf plays against and the huge ice time he logs, that all plays into his performance and his plus minus. Did not Don Cherry make comments about this. Fans need to stop throwing their players under the bus. When free agents look at offers this does effect their destination. I have read comment after comment of players attributing Phaneuf's leadership and help. When Kadri was taking some conditioning training this past summer was notPhaneuf there to encourage Him. Not every player is going to be a Bobby Orr or a Scott Stevens nor should we expect them to be. Fans drove Macabe and Murphy away and who knows which free agents the fans critical spirit scared off.
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I'm not even sure how to comment to this. But I'll be sure just to smile and jump up and down every time someone on the Leafs is mentioned.
 
After 25 games (slightly over half of the year),  the plus-minus and average time on ice stats are telling in relation to Dion's play.

He has a minus 10 stat, which ranks him at a solid 616th overall in the NHL.  Dead last at minus 13  are  Brian Campbell,  Steve Weiss,  and Nick Schulz.

By comparison, as noted already,  Fraser is at plus 17, which puts him in a tie for 1st overall.

The average ice time per game for Phaneuf is 26:00  which puts him at 6th overall in the NHL.  By comparison, the average ice time for Fraser is 15:01 minutes per game.

Of course, this is but one statistic (as non-overally critical fans will point out),  and it does not reflect the fact that Dion also plays the power play  and penalty kills.  And Phaneuf is often against the opposing team's best players.

But it just goes to show that the way he is being played, and the way he has been playing, is not good.  And  it might be worth a shot to have Fraser get that many more minutes, and to try to pair him against the better players more often, since Dion is just over-matched most nights, because of his regrettable lack of foot speed, and agility, and questionable puck sense/ hockey  intelligence.

I earlier believed that Toronto would be better off to trade him for a bona fide first string top-flight goaltender, but since the goaltending is good right now, it is questionable whether this is a glaring need.  (It is also questionable whether Dion's trade value/talent  would even merit such discussion,  since an opposing GM would have to be pretty desperate to pull the trigger and get rid of a very fine goaltender in a package involving Phaneuf).

But with Dion getting the minutes that he has been getting,  and with his difficulty moving the puck on the power play, and struggles in his own end on more than a few nights,  it just makes much better sense to try something different now, IMHO, and play Fraser significantly more.

(And I don't know if looking at the stats and writing about how terrific Fraser has been playing is being 'overly critical' about Dion).
 
This is an interesting look at Fraser's year so far...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/blogs/fanfuel/maple-leafs-mark-fraser-plus-16-rating/

According to behindthenet.ca (all of the following stats are based on five-on-five play), Fraser and his partner Cody Franson have played against the easiest competition of any Leafs defenceman. Most hockey fans probably aren?t surprised to hear that considering Fraser and Franson are the third pairing.

But, things get more interesting. Fraser has the highest offensive zone start percentage of any of the Leafs regular defenceman. Both of those factors ? low quality of competition and high offensive zone start percentage ? usually translate into strong puck possession numbers. It?s pretty intuitive: if you?re starting more often than not in the offensive zone, against the other teams? worst players, then usually you do a pretty good job of controlling the puck. Not so for Fraser. His Relative Corsi is 4.6, which is fourth amongst Leafs defenceman behind Franson, Carl Gunnarsson and Mike Kostka. Fraser?s puck possession numbers aren?t bad, they?re just not as high as you?d expect considering the situations he?s played in.
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I know those metrics aren't perfect but I think this nicely alludes to why Fraser's numbers, when it comes to +/-, are what they are. He is being slightly protected when it comes to his on ice situations. Difficult to say how he'd manage as his Qoc and zone starts became more challenging.
 
Maybe it's because he is a defenceman but it feels like to me that expectations of Dion are way lower than they were of Sundin.

Can't really compare the two players. Sundin was an absolute superstar stud of a captain.
 
When are some of you going to see that Phaneuf plays against the oppositions top ofensive players. That is going to effect his plus minus. He is probably the leafs top all round defenceman. He has also demonstrated great leadership as captain. Not everybody is going to be a Scott Stevens or Bobby Orr.
 
TheMightyOdin said:
Can't really compare the two players. Sundin was an absolute superstar stud of a captain.
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Who ultimately accomplished nothing in Toronto.

If Phaneuf ever lifts a Cup here, and I'm certainly not suggesting he will, he probably goes down as the greatest captain of the modern era.
 
Hampreacher said:
When are some of you going to see that Phaneuf plays against the oppositions top ofensive players. That is going to effect his plus minus. He is probably the leafs top all round defenceman. He has also demonstrated great leadership as captain. Not everybody is going to be a Scott Stevens or Bobby Orr.
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I think if you say the same thing for a 3rd time, most people will start to realise.
 
Bonsixx said:
TheMightyOdin said:
Can't really compare the two players. Sundin was an absolute superstar stud of a captain.
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Who ultimately accomplished nothing in Toronto.

If Phaneuf ever lifts a Cup here, and I'm certainly not suggesting he will, he probably goes down as the greatest captain of the modern era.
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I highly doubt that. Hall of famer Sundin will always be more highly regarded.
 
Bullfrog said:
I highly doubt that. Hall of famer Sundin will always be more highly regarded.
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I agree, Phaneuf would have to provoke a change in the fans, much like Sundin did, to really have any chance of that.
 
BlueWhiteBlood said:
Bullfrog said:
I highly doubt that. Hall of famer Sundin will always be more highly regarded.
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I agree, Phaneuf would have to provoke a change in the fans, much like Sundin did, to really have any chance of that.
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Are you guys joking?  IF Phaneuf captains this team to the Cup, unless he's injured the entire playoff run he'll be a huge part of that. Suggesting a Cup winning captain won't we as highly regarded as someone who never won one is ludicrous. I'll be chiseling the statue of Phaneuf myself if he ever wins a Cup here. 50 years or so of drought tends to put perspective on winning one.
 
Zee said:
Are you guys joking?  IF Phaneuf captains this team to the Cup, unless he's injured the entire playoff run he'll be a huge part of that. Suggesting a Cup winning captain won't we as highly regarded as someone who never won one is ludicrous. I'll be chiseling the statue of Phaneuf myself if he ever wins a Cup here. 50 years or so of drought tends to put perspective on winning one.
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I left it open for him to do it, but I don't think he will. I'd also wonder how much a cup win would be the result of Phaneuf's leadership. From what I see right now, he's not in Sundin's league as far as Captain's go.
 
Should he have declined?  See, I don't think so. I think Phaneuf gets too much heat for accepting the job that honestly, anyone would be crazy to not take.
 
OldTimeHockey said:
Hampreacher said:
When are some of you going to see that Phaneuf plays against the oppositions top ofensive players. That is going to effect his plus minus. He is probably the leafs top all round defenceman. He has also demonstrated great leadership as captain. Not everybody is going to be a Scott Stevens or Bobby Orr.
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I think if you say the same thing for a 3rd time, most people will start to realise.
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I think trolls will try to make smart ass remarks no matter how true a statement is nor how often it is repeated.
 
There really isn't any other player on this team that strikes me as the Captain type.  You don't tend to take a young player like a Kadri, Frattin or JVR.  You don't tend to take a guy with language issues and that is reserved in the spotlight like a Grabovski or Kulemin.  A skilled guy with virtually no charisma like a Kessel would never work out.  Guys like Bozak and Mac may not even be here long term.  Blood and guts guys like McClement or Komarov are too new to the team.  Lupul may be a future choice who knows but when he was first added to the mix, it was never meant to be long term either, it just very nicely worked out that way.  Phaneuf really is the guy like it or not, time to get behind him and live with it.
 
Rebel_1812 said:
OldTimeHockey said:
Hampreacher said:
When are some of you going to see that Phaneuf plays against the oppositions top ofensive players. That is going to effect his plus minus. He is probably the leafs top all round defenceman. He has also demonstrated great leadership as captain. Not everybody is going to be a Scott Stevens or Bobby Orr.
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I think if you say the same thing for a 3rd time, most people will start to realise.
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I think trolls will try to make smart ass remarks no matter how true a statement is nor how often it is repeated.
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Are you really calling me a troll rebel?

Give me a break.

I simply commented on an asinine comment that's been repeated twice now that makes no sense as no one here has asked him(Phaneuf) to be/or expects him to be a Bobby Orr or Scott Stevens.
 
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