Carlyle Extended/Randy's Revenge

[princedpw]

Well sure.  And a good carpenter would recognize that what he was doing with plywood isn't appropriate for plywood and might consider adjusting his approach.

Well, as someone who knows a thing or two about that sort of thing I don't think that's true. If Carlyle was hired to build a champion but doesn't have the pieces for a champion, should he really decide that what he needs to do is mold the team to mediocrity? Or should he try to mold the team to the championship model that's worked for him and, when it fails, begin to address the more pressing issue of the lack of talent on the team?

I'd agree with you, I guess, if I really was disappointed that the Leafs didn't squeeze into one of the Wild Card spots or saw the fact that they're may not squeeze into that spot next year as being really disheartening. I will genuinely take spectacular failure over that.

My big issue is more that it was lines 1 through 4 that had similar issues with getting the puck out of the defensive zone and maintaining puck control in the offensive one.  I agree that the goal shouldn't be a team that barely squeezes into the wildcard spot so bigger changes to roster need to be made regardless of who is running the show. 

Where I have a problem is that Carlyle saying it's the roster that's wrong and not me, ignores the fact that he couldn't do anything with a very good Anaheim team right before he came to Toronto.  That Anaheim team had the exact same issues with puck possession and getting hemmed in their own zone.  I mean if Carlyle had won anything recently I would agree that what worked in the past should be applied, but honestly, we are talking about a guy with 1 playoff series win in the last 8 years.  That isn't exactly my idea of a system of success any more than the Leafs playing run and gun with their head up their rear end in the defensive zone.

The roster needs big changes I just personally think one of those changes should be the coach who ran that ship.  And I understand that the Leafs have a warchest that can handle firing guys with contract years left, but it just strikes me a funny that Randy is such a great coach but you need to justify his existence in the organization to sell him to your players?  I'm just having a hard time rationalizing that argument by Nonis/Shanahan.  Did the Blues tune Hitchcock out this year because he was in the last year of his contract?  Is Detroit going to miss the playoffs next year because Babcock is in his last year of his contract?

The fact that Anaheim plunged close to the bottom in the last few years under Carlyle but were then resurrected under Boudreau doesn't look good.  Perhaps his system really was great when Anaheim won but the league has evolved.

PS: love the new thread title.

 

[princedpw]

Phaneuf and Clarkson. Clarkson is a long shot. Phaneuf has value but he horrid as a Leaf captain. Teams looking to fill their cap will pick up Phaneuf. We need a culture change why not start with the captain?

Clarkson might have the worst contract in the league. I don't see any way he could be traded.  I think Phaneuf would have a ton of value and would reap a lot.  Defensemen as good as him are hard to come by.  For instance, he would really help out the Oilers.

 

[Boston Leaf]

just please do not bring back keith acton...please no

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Phaneuf and Clarkson. Clarkson is a long shot. Phaneuf has value but he horrid as a Leaf captain. Teams looking to fill their cap will pick up Phaneuf. We need a culture change why not start with the captain?

Clarkson might have the worst contract in the league. I don't see any way he could be traded.  I think Phaneuf would have a ton of value and would reap a lot.  Defensemen as good as him are hard to come by.  For instance, he would really help out the Oilers.

If he was in a position where he wasn't starting almost every shift in his own zone against the toughest competition, and his partner wasn't playing on one hip (assuming that's what Gunnarrson went for surgery for straight after the season) he could be a very valuable player.  He doesn't have the quality of D partner of most of the other top D in the league either.

Not that he hasn't contributed to his own issues, but his role has basically been to hold back the flood waters every night.  I'd love to see what he could be in a more offensive-oriented role.  He's not slow, he can carry the puck, he's still got a shot.  A PP that effectively utilizes that shot could be dangerous.

But I don't know, unless the Leafs vastly improve their play (which he's obviously a part of) then I don't know if it happens here unfortunately.

 

[Bonsixx]

Phaneuf and Clarkson. Clarkson is a long shot. Phaneuf has value but he horrid as a Leaf captain. Teams looking to fill their cap will pick up Phaneuf. We need a culture change why not start with the captain?

I imagine Phaneuf on the second-pairing on a team like Chicago. He'd be lethal.

Clarkson might have the worst contract in the league. I don't see any way he could be traded.  I think Phaneuf would have a ton of value and would reap a lot.  Defensemen as good as him are hard to come by.  For instance, he would really help out the Oilers.

If he was in a position where he wasn't starting almost every shift in his own zone against the toughest competition, and his partner wasn't playing on one hip (assuming that's what Gunnarrson went for surgery for straight after the season) he could be a very valuable player.  He doesn't have the quality of D partner of most of the other top D in the league either.

Not that he hasn't contributed to his own issues, but his role has basically been to hold back the flood waters every night.  I'd love to see what he could be in a more offensive-oriented role.  He's not slow, he can carry the puck, he's still got a shot.  A PP that effectively utilizes that shot could be dangerous.

But I don't know, unless the Leafs vastly improve their play (which he's obviously a part of) then I don't know if it happens here unfortunately.

 

[lamajama]

So I am wondering since he has signed a extension. Does this mean Jake and Kadri will be traded?

You have to give to get....

Yes because Lord knows, the kid's are not the future. Our own development and potential be damned.

You don't think there are any possible deals that involve either of those players that could make sense?

No, none that any rational GM would make with us, Garth Snow included. It would be that team's version of potential
vs ours. I suppose it all depends on what Gardiner and Kadri will eventually become. I happen to believe Kadri will be special in terms of sheer offensive and playmaking abilities. Gardiner I am not 100% sure on as I still see large flaws in his brain game when he gets chasing in his own end. So defensively I don't think he'll ever be a Norris player but his offensive skills will be wonderful. Don't forget that any player traded to us is because that team believes the guy they are giving up is not as good as our guy. I am so cheesed about Carlyle it's almost unexplainable. I have never been so close to ripping the Leaf tattoo on my butt off. I suspect I will when they move Gardiner and Kadri. In many ways I will be happy for them to escape such sheer incompetence and league joke.

 

[Rebel_1812]

why not?  If the players were the problem, why blame the coach?

 

[2badknees]

I'm relatively new to the board, so I didn't realize that May is the month to get upset about trades that haven't happened yet.

I consulted the intarweeb, and it says that the average coaching tenure is 2.58 seasons, with a median of 1.37. So this should likely be carlyle's last.

 

[13th fan]

I'm curious to who will decide on hiring the assistance coaches ? Will it be Randy , Nonis or by committee ? 

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I'm curious to who will decide on hiring the assistance coaches ? Will it be Randy , Nonis or by committee ? 

One of the articles said it would be by committee (Shanny, Nonis, Carlyle).

 

[13th fan]

I'm curious to who will decide on hiring the assistance coaches ? Will it be Randy , Nonis or by committee ? 

One of the articles said it would be by committee (Shanny, Nonis, Carlyle).

Thanks CTB

 

[mr grieves]

I am so cheesed about Carlyle it's almost unexplainable. I have never been so close to ripping the Leaf tattoo on my butt off. I suspect I will when they move Gardiner and Kadri. In many ways I will be happy for them to escape such sheer incompetence and league joke.

Yeah, this is at least something to root for. Several good, likable players (Grabo, MacArthur, Scrivens) have been moved out and done pretty well elsewhere. If Kadri and Gardiner are the next out, the only guy I'll feel really bad watching go down with the ship is poor Phil. What a waste of a prime.

 

[93forever]

Some Ottawa Senator fans are feeling really bad for me and other Leaf fans because of Carlyle's extension - It is the extra 2 years that bother them.  Not only that, they think the Leafs organization is more embarrassing than the Islanders.

 

[Kin]

The fact that Anaheim plunged close to the bottom in the last few years under Carlyle but were then resurrected under Boudreau doesn't look good.

The last few years as in the years when Carlyle's Ducks went from having Niedermayer and Pronger to having neither?

 

[mr grieves]

The fact that Anaheim plunged close to the bottom in the last few years under Carlyle but were then resurrected under Boudreau doesn't look good.

The last few years as in the years when Carlyle's Ducks went from having Niedermayer and Pronger to having neither?

 

[Kin]

The fact that Anaheim plunged close to the bottom in the last few years under Carlyle but were then resurrected under Boudreau doesn't look good.

The last few years as in the years when Carlyle's Ducks went from having Niedermayer and Pronger to having neither?

No I can still read, thanks. Boudreau getting good results out of the current group, being the right coach for the current players they have, doesn't mean Pronger and Niedermayer weren't central to Carlyle's "system" working when he coached the team.

 

[mr grieves]

The fact that Anaheim plunged close to the bottom in the last few years under Carlyle but were then resurrected under Boudreau doesn't look good.

The last few years as in the years when Carlyle's Ducks went from having Niedermayer and Pronger to having neither?

No I can still read, thanks. Boudreau getting good results out of the current group, being the right coach for the current players they have, doesn't mean Pronger and Niedermayer weren't central to Carlyle's "system" working when he coached the team.

Which seems to me to agree with princepw's point: there's not much reason to be confident that Carlyle has a winning system in the absence of first-ballot HoF defensemen, or that he can be the "right coach" for this group of players.

 

[Kin]

Which seems to me to agree with princepw's point: there's not much reason to be confident that Carlyle has a winning system in the absence of first-ballot HoF defensemen, or that he can be the "right coach" for this group of players.

That wasn't his point though. His point was that the way Carlyle's teams fell apart near the end was an indication of the way the league, rather than the team, had changed. That what happened in the years that followed was a result of team's figuring out that "system" rather than the Ducks being unable to ice the players capable of doing what Carlyle wanted them to do effectively. In light of the way the team lost all of Pronger, Niedermayer and Beauchemin(to say nothing of losing the entire Moen-Pahlsson-Rob Niedermayer line), that strikes me as a somewhat unfair reading of the situation.

But to what you said, I have absolutely no objection to the premise that Carlyle's system is incapable of creating a Stanley Cup contender out of players that aren't as good as what he had in 06-07.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

But to what you said, I have absolutely no objection to the premise that Carlyle's system is incapable of creating a Stanley Cup contender out of players that aren't as good as what he had in 06-07.

I'm still not 100% sold that the current players garnish better results with any coach at the helm.

 

[Kin]

I'm still not 100% sold that the current players garnish better results with any coach at the helm.

I think it's fair for someone to look at the inordinately high number of shots against and the relative talent on the blue line and be pretty confident that a coach with a stronger defensive track record should be able to positively affect that somehow. The extent to which that, in and of itself, would result in significantly better results is something I'm uncertain of.