Contracts for the Big-3

[Andy007]

Gretzky's take:

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/wayne-gretzky-says-wouldnt-hold-william-nylander-003425942.html

 

[Frank E]

In the abstract, I?m not happy, but we have so little information about what the details of the offers are.

Sure, but I think we can make fairly reasonable assumptions. I don't think Dubas would be wasting anyone's time offering less than 6, I seriously doubt Nylander is asking for above what Draisaitl got(if he was, I think all of those reports of "in the neighbourhood of Draisaitl's deal" would be more specific).

If nothing else though, this negotiation I hope puts an end to the way we evaluate GMs with respect to contracts. When Lamoriello left a lot of the things people put in his "good" column was getting Rielly/Kadri to sign at the prices/terms they did. Now, though, I think it's probably as wrong to give him credit for that(or blame Dubas for what's going on now) as it would be to give him credit for winning the Lottery and landing Matthews. What players want and what they're willing to sign for isn't really something in their control.

I don't agree.

There are great negotiators, and there are terrible ones.  There's a whole gulf in between, but to suggest that there's no talent in it is not something I can subscribe to. 

Think of it like this, a GM can create a culture around the business that entices people to want to be around it.  Some people are good salespeople, and good at executing on creating such a culture, and some aren't.

I wouldn't judge Dubas based on one difficult negotiation, but 2 or 3 tough ones, and maybe he just isn't good enough at selling his business as one that people want to work for unless they're paid maximum market value. 

 

[OldTimeHockey]

What we're doing here is dispelling myths and narratives that have crept into the Leafs zeitgeist because Willy's not blindly signing the first low-ball deal that comes his way.

One of the things I'm fairly concerned about is Nylander signing late, not having a great season, the Leafs not meeting all their expectations and an inordinate amount of dumb fan criticism falling on Nylander.

The further and further this goes, the more and more I just can't see Dubas' strategy here as being a good one. The world where whatever the difference is between Dubas' offer and Nylander's ask becomes more significant to their winning than everyone playing and happy seems pretty remote.

Dubas has been pretty magical in all his moves to date.  Until now.  If he can't get Nylander signed there's no way to view it as anything other than a failure for him, in his first big negotiation.

I don't know that it would be called a failure. I wouldn't consider it one anyways.

Dubas is in a tough spot here. If he caves and gives Nylander what he wants he may be looked at as being a young GM that's getting pushed around by his talent. If he holds tough and doesn't get it done he may be considered a failure(as you pointed out).

It's a pretty tough contract to be his first big one. It would of almost been easier on him if Matthews and Marner were the first to require a new contract.

 

[sickbeast]

I don't think Dubas will fail with Nylander.  I would be shocked.  What Nylander is doing now is playing right into Dubas' hand in a way.  If Dubas can sign him now, there will be a significant cap savings for the team.

I have a feeling this may be personal and it probably has nothing to do with Dubas.  Roman Polak made some comments about certain skill guys having a hard time with Babcock.  I believe he was referring to Nylander directly.  Nylander may not be happy playing in Toronto.  He may have a multitude of reasons for doing this, money being just one of them.

The bottom line is that no matter what Nylander does, Dubas has options.  Going down to the wire with Nylander has some risk.  However I have a feeling Dubas will have some trade options lined up that he can pull the trigger on at the 11th hour if he has to.

What must be really interesting is the contract discussions between Carolina and Nylander.  I wonder what they offered him.  And I wonder if that is going to impact the negotiation at all.  From Nylander's perspective if a small market team is going to offer him more than the Leafs with their endless cash, I could understand his standpoint.

 

[TML fan]

It's not about money for the Leafs, it's about cap space. Their endless cash is irrelevant since they can only spend what everyone else can.

This isn't a case of the Leafs being cheap.

 

[Kin]

There are great negotiators, and there are terrible ones.  There's a whole gulf in between, but to suggest that there's no talent in it is not something I can subscribe to.

It's not that I'd say there's no talent in it, just that when you're talking about this particular level of executive and when there's as little room for creative solutions as there is in NHL contracts that the likelihood is that everyone who is negotiating NHL contracts is in roughly the same cohort that isn't going to have a major impact on what players are willing to sign for. 

Think of it like this, a GM can create a culture around the business that entices people to want to be around it.

Yeah, I don't especially believe that. When you look at those lists of best employers in a various field usually what people talk about are pay/benefits."Culture" I think is just one of those largely after the fact buzzwords that people like to attribute success to because they can take personal credit for something that is largely outside of their hands.

This is the NHL. Jobs here, in the front office or on-ice, are prestigious regardless. I don't think there's any compelling evidence that any NHL GM has some sort of consistent track record of getting players to take below market deals outside of, maybe, someone like Yzerman but even that probably has more to do with weather/taxes than it does with Yzerman just being a negotiating genius.

 

[sickbeast]

It's not about money for the Leafs, it's about cap space. Their endless cash is irrelevant since they can only spend what everyone else can.

This isn't a case of the Leafs being cheap.

I realize that.  It's just that from Nylander's standpoint, he's probably thinking to himself "Why is Carolina offering me $8 million but the Leafs are only willing to pay me $6 million?".  From Nylander's standpoint, the salary cap is irrelevant and quite frankly the cap crunch was created by Dubas signing Tavares.  And he would not be incorrect with that assessment.

From Nylander's standpoint, in Carolina he would get more money, more ice time, more recognition, and he wouldn't have to deal with the Toronto media.  Nylander may want to push this to the wall in the hope that Dubas trades him.  He may be trying to force Dubas' hand.  If Dubas pays him, fine.  But if not, we will see him traded IMO.  I don't see the Leafs signing Nylander to any kind of reasonable contract.  It wouldn't make sense on a number of levels.

 

[Coco-puffs]

I realize that.  It's just that from Nylander's standpoint, he's probably thinking to himself "Why is Carolina offering me $8 million but the Leafs are only willing to pay me $6 million?".  From Nylander's standpoint, the salary cap is irrelevant and quite frankly the cap crunch was created by Dubas signing Tavares.  And he would not be incorrect with that assessment.

From Nylander's standpoint, in Carolina he would get more money, more ice time, more recognition, and he wouldn't have to deal with the Toronto media.  Nylander may want to push this to the wall in the hope that Dubas trades him.  He may be trying to force Dubas' hand.  If Dubas pays him, fine.  But if not, we will see him traded IMO.  I don't see the Leafs signing Nylander to any kind of reasonable contract.  It wouldn't make sense on a number of levels.

Lets pour some water on the thought that the Hurricanes are offering Nylander anything at the moment:

Waddell said he has not spoken to Nylander's agent, Lewis Gross, about a contract, but said the Hurricanes would need to have a contract in place to trade for the winger.

https://www.tsn.ca/waddell-hurricanes-looking-for-offence-haven-t-spoken-to-nylander-s-agent-1.1210173

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Lets pour some water on the thought that the Hurricanes are offering Nylander anything at the moment:

Waddell said he has not spoken to Nylander's agent, Lewis Gross, about a contract, but said the Hurricanes would need to have a contract in place to trade for the winger.

https://www.tsn.ca/waddell-hurricanes-looking-for-offence-haven-t-spoken-to-nylander-s-agent-1.1210173

I was very curious what was taking the Toronto media so long to contact Waddell for comments. Pretty surprised about that, assuming it's true that is.

 

[Coco-puffs]

Lets pour some water on the thought that the Hurricanes are offering Nylander anything at the moment:

Waddell said he has not spoken to Nylander's agent, Lewis Gross, about a contract, but said the Hurricanes would need to have a contract in place to trade for the winger.

https://www.tsn.ca/waddell-hurricanes-looking-for-offence-haven-t-spoken-to-nylander-s-agent-1.1210173

I was very curious what was taking the Toronto media so long to contact Waddell for comments. Pretty surprised about that, assuming it's true that is.

Yes, very possible Waddell is providing a smoke screen.  At the end of the day, if another GM is talking contract with Nylander it provides the Nylander camp some leverage.  I feel like the other GM's around the league see what is happening here and don't want RFA's without arb to gain any leverage / push those salaries up.  (ie, offer sheets are rare for a reason... even talking about them with the agent or talking contract if they can trade for the player can provide the player leverage... GM's want to suppress those contracts as much as possible so they don't even contact the agent.  They try and find out information from the team)

 

[Highlander]

What team is going to offer up over 8 Mill for this guy when they basically will have to trade us two of their best players and probably a first to cover it. I just can't see it happening. 
Shanahan and Dubas are going to make him sit a year as an example to the others or let him take his chances flying on Aeroflot.
Its also in the interest of all other GM's

 

[CarltonTheBear]

What team is going to offer up over 8 Mill for this guy when they basically will have to trade us two of their best players and probably a first to cover it. I just can't see it happening. 
Shanahan and Dubas are going to make him sit a year as an example to the others or let him take his chances flying on Aeroflot.
Its also in the interest of all other GM's

Probably none, but a number would likely offer him $7-7.5mil I'd imagine. And that's something the Leafs reportedly haven't gotten to.

 

[caver]

Lets pour some water on the thought that the Hurricanes are offering Nylander anything at the moment:

Waddell said he has not spoken to Nylander's agent, Lewis Gross, about a contract, but said the Hurricanes would need to have a contract in place to trade for the winger.

https://www.tsn.ca/waddell-hurricanes-looking-for-offence-haven-t-spoken-to-nylander-s-agent-1.1210173

I was very curious what was taking the Toronto media so long to contact Waddell for comments. Pretty surprised about that, assuming it's true that is.

Have they contacted Reimer's mother yet ??

 

[herman]

Lets pour some water on the thought that the Hurricanes are offering Nylander anything at the moment:

Waddell said he has not spoken to Nylander's agent, Lewis Gross, about a contract, but said the Hurricanes would need to have a contract in place to trade for the winger.

https://www.tsn.ca/waddell-hurricanes-looking-for-offence-haven-t-spoken-to-nylander-s-agent-1.1210173

I was very curious what was taking the Toronto media so long to contact Waddell for comments. Pretty surprised about that, assuming it's true that is.

Yes, very possible Waddell is providing a smoke screen.  At the end of the day, if another GM is talking contract with Nylander it provides the Nylander camp some leverage.  I feel like the other GM's around the league see what is happening here and don't want RFA's without arb to gain any leverage / push those salaries up.  (ie, offer sheets are rare for a reason... even talking about them with the agent or talking contract if they can trade for the player can provide the player leverage... GM's want to suppress those contracts as much as possible so they don't even contact the agent.  They try and find out information from the team)

I like Waddell.

 

[Coco-puffs]

Lets pour some water on the thought that the Hurricanes are offering Nylander anything at the moment:

Waddell said he has not spoken to Nylander's agent, Lewis Gross, about a contract, but said the Hurricanes would need to have a contract in place to trade for the winger.

https://www.tsn.ca/waddell-hurricanes-looking-for-offence-haven-t-spoken-to-nylander-s-agent-1.1210173

I was very curious what was taking the Toronto media so long to contact Waddell for comments. Pretty surprised about that, assuming it's true that is.

Yes, very possible Waddell is providing a smoke screen.  At the end of the day, if another GM is talking contract with Nylander it provides the Nylander camp some leverage.  I feel like the other GM's around the league see what is happening here and don't want RFA's without arb to gain any leverage / push those salaries up.  (ie, offer sheets are rare for a reason... even talking about them with the agent or talking contract if they can trade for the player can provide the player leverage... GM's want to suppress those contracts as much as possible so they don't even contact the agent.  They try and find out information from the team)

I like Waddell.

The full interview:

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2018/11/15/don-waddell-speaks-on-the-carolina-hurricanes-interest-in-william-nylander/

have not, to be honest with you. My thinking is that, until you can get to a point where you think you can potentially have a trade, I think you are putting the cart in front of the horse. I rather be in a position where if I knew that was going to happen at some point down the road, then you?d pick up the phone and find out if there is a deal to be made.

Being in this spot multiple times myself, I don?t want to create any illusion or conflict between the Maple Leafs and Nylander trying to get signed. I think it is unfair for me to get into that mix, unless of course, something was moving forward as far as acquiring the player.

Sounds like a GM who has "no-offer sheets" in his lexicon. 

 

[herman]

Nearly got hoodwinked by this. Let?s see how everyone?s reading comprehension is today.

https://twitter.com/leafsrr/status/1062902587114971136

 

[caver]

@ Leafs Rr ??

 

[cabber24]

Nearly got hoodwinked by this. Let?s see how everyone?s reading comprehension is today.

https://twitter.com/leafsrr/status/1062902587114971136

Other then it being fake news, I don't know what reading comprehension has to do with it?

 

[Phileas Fogg]

@ Leafs Rr ??

Heh, I had to skim it twice to see the double r.

I'd be funny if they actually agree to terms on the same number and years as this.

 

[cabber24]

@ Leafs Rr ??

Heh, I had to skim it twice to see the double r.

I'd be funny if they actually agree to terms on the same number and years as this.

Still not following? I guess I don't know my twitter acronyms?