Coronavirus
- Thread starter Highlander
- Start date
How is taking something with a grain of salt because something is entirely unsubstantiated cheapen the discussion or anything of that sort? Personally I think it's morally irresponsible to make unsubstantiated health claims on a message board, period, and if you can't take the skepticism coming, which comes from a place generally of good faith, then I really don't know what to tell you or anyone else who can't take even the most basic level of scrutiny for making that claim.Highlander said:
In closing, an extraordinary claim requires an extraordinary level of evidence. The onus is on the person making the claim to give good evidence from vetted sources before making the claim. People have the right to scrutinize it. And as an aside, as a kid I used to go to a homeopathic doctor because my mom was distrustful of normal doctors. I have a condition where if I don't treat my lungs properly when catching a cold I am almost guaranteed bronchitis. For years I was given a tincture and was told it would work and when it inevitably failed I would be taken to emerg and put on an oxygen mask with Ventolin. Guess what, it worked. Looking back at that I am pretty livid at how irresponsible that level of care I received from that homeopathic doctor was because I was supposed to trust a treatment that didn't follow the best practices at the time. So forgive me for not being ok with something that has circumstantial evidence at best surrounding its efficacy. I've been close to death because of that kind of thing.
Hobbes
New member
When 9999 out of 10000 experts in the field say that [item x] has no appreciable effect on a patient, quoting that 1 remaining Dr Oz-like "expert" isn't helpful. *Usually* what they're recommending isn't directly harmful, but what it can do is give a patient a false sense of security which they might foolishly rely upon instead of carrying out the recommendations of the other 9999 as well.
By all means pump yourself full of anything you want, but don't ignore the overwhelming majority of the *real* experts...you know, the ones who work for the CDC and WHO and who are the front line researchers.
By all means pump yourself full of anything you want, but don't ignore the overwhelming majority of the *real* experts...you know, the ones who work for the CDC and WHO and who are the front line researchers.
Ordinary people do not need masks and should not be buying masks. Doing so will deplete the supply of masks, which are needed by healthcare professionals.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/29/health/coronavirus-n95-face-masks.html
In general, if someone is promulgating incorrect medical information, it is important to speak up and let people know it is incorrect. Incorrect information about medicine leads to things like people not getting vaccinated and then getting the flu or measles and dying. Of course, when correcting misinformation, we don?t have to be a$$holes.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/29/health/coronavirus-n95-face-masks.html
In general, if someone is promulgating incorrect medical information, it is important to speak up and let people know it is incorrect. Incorrect information about medicine leads to things like people not getting vaccinated and then getting the flu or measles and dying. Of course, when correcting misinformation, we don?t have to be a$$holes.
Hobbes
New member
So in the interests of fair play, here are a few more links that people who are concerned about COVID19 might want to have a look at:
WHO official suggestions for the best means of protecting yourself
CDC (Center for Disease Control...the ones who are the real experts) suggestions on protection
Health Canada (Gov.ca) advice on preparedness and also their recommendations on protection
WHO "Mythbusters"
list of suggestions floating around out there that are of no known benefit for protecting yourself
WHO official suggestions for the best means of protecting yourself
CDC (Center for Disease Control...the ones who are the real experts) suggestions on protection
Health Canada (Gov.ca) advice on preparedness and also their recommendations on protection
WHO "Mythbusters"
list of suggestions floating around out there that are of no known benefit for protecting yourself
Kin
Active member
I don't think anyone would care if someone came in here and said "I eat 5 bananas a day and I feel great! I think they're the key to good health" because that sort of thing is easy enough to take or leave. I think what rubs some people the wrong way is trying to add the veneer of authority to it with second hand medical endorsements or trying to ascribe specific health benefits to products without medical education or evidence.
Like, as a for instance, I've heard lots of people say that taking vitamin supplements essentially does nothing for you that a balanced diet with a lot of nutrient rich food wouldn't already do. Despite that, because I was raised in kind of a hippy-ish household, I take a daily multi-vitamin. I like taking something that I at least think may help with my health.
But I'd never say, you know, I'm in pretty good health generally so the vitamin must be working or, you know, that it healed me of a specific condition because I don't have the first idea if that's true or not.
Like, as a for instance, I've heard lots of people say that taking vitamin supplements essentially does nothing for you that a balanced diet with a lot of nutrient rich food wouldn't already do. Despite that, because I was raised in kind of a hippy-ish household, I take a daily multi-vitamin. I like taking something that I at least think may help with my health.
But I'd never say, you know, I'm in pretty good health generally so the vitamin must be working or, you know, that it healed me of a specific condition because I don't have the first idea if that's true or not.
bustaheims
Well-known member
Nik Bethune said:
Agreed. There's nothing wrong with advocating for supplements as something that may or may not improve your health. As long as you're not taking too much of any particular substance, on their own, they're unlikely to have a significant negative impact on you.
The problem is the spread of disinformation that comes with situations like this. Can vitamin C improve your health and strengthen your immune system? Sure. Will it have a significant impact on your immunity or ability to fight this particular virus? No.
The best thing we can do is stick to spreading facts that comes from organizations like the WHO, the CDC, and Health Canada, and not signal boost those that comes from less reliable sources.
Bullfrog
Active member
princedpw said:
I mostly agree with you, but I do feel we need to be a bit more assertive in our defense of actual science. While it's easy for some to say "this advice is harmless", it's demonstrably NOT harmless. Many people will eschew actual effective treatments because so-and-so told them that megadoses of vitamin C will prevent, cure, or treat a virus. This doesn't just harm this person; it harms everyone else who is affected and/or infected by their virus due to misguided or flat out ignorant "advice."
If Nik wants to waste $8 a month on a multivitamin, that's harmless (except for the danger of him getting too much iron or other minerals).
But saying, "I haven't had a cold in three years because of mega vitamin-D doses" can certainly be harmful.
Hobbes
New member
This is very much worth watching: Last Week Tonight's look at nutritional supplements but also applies to lots of similar questionable medical promoters (plus it's very funny).
Kin
Active member
Coco-puffs
New member
Self-containment: Coming to a city near you.
https://twitter.com/SweeneyABC/status/1237018677360410624
https://twitter.com/SweeneyABC/status/1237018677360410624
hockeyfan1
New member
I take 50,000 IUs of Vitamin D and a good multi-vitamin, multimineral iron-free supplement (and not just any brand). I have health issues and malabsorption problems (inability to absorb nutrients from food).
My naturopath has very high standards toward health care products. He has a top ten list of the best supplement manufacturers whose products actually contain what?s listed on the bottle.
Vitamins and natural products in general have never killed people except in certain cases compared to the number of people who die from medication complications in hospitals (and that is a well-known fact).
https://ethics.harvard.edu/blog/new-prescription-drugs-major-health-risk-few-offsetting-advantages
Also, I?d like to remind you that the FDA has never approved of a single natural product. They are stacked with former Pharma executives who march to each other?s beat. The FDA was originally set up by pharmaceuticals to push their own interests.
In Ontario, under the premiership of the David Peterson government, then health minister Monte Kwinter passed legislation that to this day stands:
https://vitalitymagazine.com/article/ode-great-politician/amp/
The incredible na?vet? of some of you people on this board is mind boggling. It?s pretty obvious none of you know next to nothing about the history of medicine, pharmaceuticals, herbal medicine, the struggles some doctors went through in helping their patients achieve better health vs medical boards, mistreatment of women by mainstream medicine (from the past), etc., etc.
I know what I?m doing with my health. While it still isn?t where it should be and may never be, it?s helping me cope with whatever symptoms I have to keep me alive and to be able to enjoy Leafs hockey.
Natural/integrative medical modalities have saved my life and I continue to stand by it. While I am currently under no prescribed medications, I understand that they too can be life-saving.
Once again, let me reiterate that no one is advocating people throw out their medicines, but if there is a way to a 50-50 approach or even greater, then all the better for patient outcome. Medications all have side-defects, it practically comes with the territory and there really isn?t much one can do about some greater and some minor, and taking them whatever they may be can cause long-term organ and general health damage to cells.
Many doctors privately believe herbs are better than drugs, just as effective in the longer term. Herbs have been around for thousands of years, long before pharmaceuticals were ever invented.
Everything has it?s risks ?do not self-medicate not even for natural products, always seek out the advice of a healthcare practitioner ? which is why a pragmatic, practical, and realistic approach for one?s health is truly the best advice.
Let?s face it, nutrition and health & wellness have become the lexicon on everyone?s lips. It runs the gamut from health professionals to exercise & wellness experts.
What some of us may not know is that many of those in the natural medicine field were long endorsing the usage of supplementation in it?s various forms, healthy eating habits, body/mind de stressing techniques, etcetera, etcetera, way before anyone had ever heard of it en masse. That?s who we have to thank long before the science behind it.
My naturopath has very high standards toward health care products. He has a top ten list of the best supplement manufacturers whose products actually contain what?s listed on the bottle.
Vitamins and natural products in general have never killed people except in certain cases compared to the number of people who die from medication complications in hospitals (and that is a well-known fact).
https://ethics.harvard.edu/blog/new-prescription-drugs-major-health-risk-few-offsetting-advantages
Also, I?d like to remind you that the FDA has never approved of a single natural product. They are stacked with former Pharma executives who march to each other?s beat. The FDA was originally set up by pharmaceuticals to push their own interests.
In Ontario, under the premiership of the David Peterson government, then health minister Monte Kwinter passed legislation that to this day stands:
https://vitalitymagazine.com/article/ode-great-politician/amp/
The incredible na?vet? of some of you people on this board is mind boggling. It?s pretty obvious none of you know next to nothing about the history of medicine, pharmaceuticals, herbal medicine, the struggles some doctors went through in helping their patients achieve better health vs medical boards, mistreatment of women by mainstream medicine (from the past), etc., etc.
I know what I?m doing with my health. While it still isn?t where it should be and may never be, it?s helping me cope with whatever symptoms I have to keep me alive and to be able to enjoy Leafs hockey.
Natural/integrative medical modalities have saved my life and I continue to stand by it. While I am currently under no prescribed medications, I understand that they too can be life-saving.
Once again, let me reiterate that no one is advocating people throw out their medicines, but if there is a way to a 50-50 approach or even greater, then all the better for patient outcome. Medications all have side-defects, it practically comes with the territory and there really isn?t much one can do about some greater and some minor, and taking them whatever they may be can cause long-term organ and general health damage to cells.
Many doctors privately believe herbs are better than drugs, just as effective in the longer term. Herbs have been around for thousands of years, long before pharmaceuticals were ever invented.
Everything has it?s risks ?do not self-medicate not even for natural products, always seek out the advice of a healthcare practitioner ? which is why a pragmatic, practical, and realistic approach for one?s health is truly the best advice.
Let?s face it, nutrition and health & wellness have become the lexicon on everyone?s lips. It runs the gamut from health professionals to exercise & wellness experts.
What some of us may not know is that many of those in the natural medicine field were long endorsing the usage of supplementation in it?s various forms, healthy eating habits, body/mind de stressing techniques, etcetera, etcetera, way before anyone had ever heard of it en masse. That?s who we have to thank long before the science behind it.
Highlander
Well-known member
Hockey Fan is right on, we can discount Hockey Fan or myself or other posters as this is SM. Fact of the matter if I read correctly is Hockey Fan has invested in herself, her time, her self education, in order to have a better life for herself. This is worth something. For myself much the same, years and years of educating myself and then to be discarded as a "snake oil salesman", what a laugh. I have a lot of other fish to fry right now.
hockeyfan1
New member
Highlander said:
Thank you, Highlander. I appreciate it.
Bullfrog
Active member
hockeyfan1 said:
I hope you've conferred with your primary care physician. That's more than 10 times the safe upper limit for an adult and more than 60 times the recommended amount. 50,000 IUs could very well be contributing to ill health.
We all have the right to make our own decisions about our health (except for children), but when you're going that far out of the scientifically accepted range, that can be dangerous.
bustaheims
Well-known member
Bullfrog said:
And, hopefully, that primary care physician is a fully licensed medical doctor, with the Doctorate of Medicine to confirm that status. The overwhelming majority of naturopath simply have not had the kind of education required to be dispensing advice when it relates to such abnormally high amounts of vitamins, minerals, or any other substance.