Coronavirus

[OldTimeHockey]

As for the "why are strip clubs open" comment....why not? Just because I don't necessarily agree with them, doesn't mean that the business owner doesn't have the right to earn his living.

It's not a moral objection, it's a practical one. Social distancing seems slightly more realistic in restaurants than in strip clubs and contact tracing is more effective in situations where everyone isn't giving a fake name.

Except strip clubs aren't the only things open that aren't following their "safe reopening plans"

 

[Kin]

Except strip clubs aren't the only things open that aren't following their "safe reopening plans"

I don't think it's about adherence to a plan, I think the point here is that it seems as though not following a safe reopening plan is inherent to the nature of a strip club on top of its limited utility when compared to something like a restaurant.

 

[princedpw]

For what it?s worth, it doesn?t seem like a good idea to open bars or strip clubs (though I?m more tempted to keep bars open if the observation is made that people are replacing bars with house parties and the transmission effects are similar ... basically, I?d try to use science to figure out the optimal policy there). It seems better to keep covid low for the next few months so that all the other businesses and schools can try to stay open and have the government provide support to these businesses (and their workers) that have the greatest transmission rates.

 

[princedpw]

https://twitter.com/celliottability/status/1303334106051366912

Our 7-day average was down to 80.3 cases/day on August 14th. It's now at 159.3 and potentially rising. Not really a great way to start school/fall weather time.

I said to my family this week that I don't see in class learning lasting past Thanksgiving. I may have been overly generous.

Just looking at various epidemiologists rt estimations we're not doing too well... People are very good at forgetting exponential growth math.

I?m very suspicious that the human brain has evolved to process linear functions and nothing else.  Everybody subconsciously assumes everything behaves linearly.

 

[princedpw]

Why does this app replace all apostrophes with question marks?

 

[Bender]

As for the "why are strip clubs open" comment....why not? Just because I don't necessarily agree with them, doesn't mean that the business owner doesn't have the right to earn his living.

It's not a moral objection, it's a practical one. Social distancing seems slightly more realistic in restaurants than in strip clubs and contact tracing is more effective in situations where everyone isn't giving a fake name.

Except strip clubs aren't the only things open that aren't following their "safe reopening plans"

I didn't give an exhaustive list of things that I think we need to prioritize, this is just a Leafs forum after all and I am not an expert in the field, but I am taking my cues from cautious epidemiologists and virologists that I have seen make fairly correct calls on the trajectory of this virus.

At the end of the day the current policies and guidelines aren't keeping the virus in check. Regarding class sizes, I don't have the answers. If I did I probably wouldn't be writing in this forum right now. I understand there are logistical issues, but the only options we have are to find what's working elsewhere and do our best to implement that here because what we're doing currently, as a whole, clearly isn't enough based on the current rates of transmission. This whole pandemic is essentially large series' of logistical issues but we aren't the only ones dealing with this. And the reality is tough policy decisions will have to be made and if that also means hard policy decisions, like closing or highly limiting indoor capacity for bars and restaurants and strip clubs then so be it. There are calls by some to try and support those businesses while at limited capacity so that more crucial areas of the economy can stay open. If we do nothing there is a good chance we start seeing exponential growth. Once that happens and is sustained long enough runaway transmission either locks us down or we have potential for what happened in New York to happen here or both. Each of those scenarios would be far more costly than using whatever policy levers we have right now like limiting certain settings (not just private ones) to lower capacities etc.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Except strip clubs aren't the only things open that aren't following their "safe reopening plans"

I don't think it's about adherence to a plan, I think the point here is that it seems as though not following a safe reopening plan is inherent to the nature of a strip club on top of its limited utility when compared to something like a restaurant.

Try telling that to the guy running the night club.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

As for the "why are strip clubs open" comment....why not? Just because I don't necessarily agree with them, doesn't mean that the business owner doesn't have the right to earn his living.

It's not a moral objection, it's a practical one. Social distancing seems slightly more realistic in restaurants than in strip clubs and contact tracing is more effective in situations where everyone isn't giving a fake name.

Except strip clubs aren't the only things open that aren't following their "safe reopening plans"

I didn't give an exhaustive list of things that I think we need to prioritize, this is just a Leafs forum after all and I am not an expert in the field, but I am taking my cues from cautious epidemiologists and virologists that I have seen make fairly correct calls on the trajectory of this virus.

At the end of the day the current policies and guidelines aren't keeping the virus in check. Regarding class sizes, I don't have the answers. If I did I probably wouldn't be writing in this forum right now. I understand there are logistical issues, but the only options we have are to find what's working elsewhere and do our best to implement that here because what we're doing currently, as a whole, clearly isn't enough based on the current rates of transmission. This whole pandemic is essentially large series' of logistical issues but we aren't the only ones dealing with this. And the reality is tough policy decisions will have to be made and if that also means hard policy decisions, like closing or highly limiting indoor capacity for bars and restaurants and strip clubs then so be it. There are calls by some to try and support those businesses while at limited capacity so that more crucial areas of the economy can stay open. If we do nothing there is a good chance we start seeing exponential growth. Once that happens and is sustained long enough runaway transmission either locks us down or we have potential for what happened in New York to happen here or both. Each of those scenarios would be far more costly than using whatever policy levers we have right now like limiting certain settings (not just private ones) to lower capacities etc.

Do we think we are seeing growth in numbers due to the businesses that are open? Everything I see keeps pointing to private functions and university students returning to places like Western and Queens.

Though I suppose limiting the businesses that these people are going to after these parties, may limit the spread.

 

[Kin]

Try telling that to the guy running the night club.

Ok? I'd be fine to tell that guy the same thing.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Try telling that to the guy running the night club.

Ok? I'd be fine to tell that guy the same thing.

And I'd probably agree.

My point is, he wouldn't. He's an entrepreneur. He's running a business that in his eyes probably isn't much different than Flannigan's Irish Pub.

 

[Bender]

As for the "why are strip clubs open" comment....why not? Just because I don't necessarily agree with them, doesn't mean that the business owner doesn't have the right to earn his living.

It's not a moral objection, it's a practical one. Social distancing seems slightly more realistic in restaurants than in strip clubs and contact tracing is more effective in situations where everyone isn't giving a fake name.

Except strip clubs aren't the only things open that aren't following their "safe reopening plans"

I didn't give an exhaustive list of things that I think we need to prioritize, this is just a Leafs forum after all and I am not an expert in the field, but I am taking my cues from cautious epidemiologists and virologists that I have seen make fairly correct calls on the trajectory of this virus.

At the end of the day the current policies and guidelines aren't keeping the virus in check. Regarding class sizes, I don't have the answers. If I did I probably wouldn't be writing in this forum right now. I understand there are logistical issues, but the only options we have are to find what's working elsewhere and do our best to implement that here because what we're doing currently, as a whole, clearly isn't enough based on the current rates of transmission. This whole pandemic is essentially large series' of logistical issues but we aren't the only ones dealing with this. And the reality is tough policy decisions will have to be made and if that also means hard policy decisions, like closing or highly limiting indoor capacity for bars and restaurants and strip clubs then so be it. There are calls by some to try and support those businesses while at limited capacity so that more crucial areas of the economy can stay open. If we do nothing there is a good chance we start seeing exponential growth. Once that happens and is sustained long enough runaway transmission either locks us down or we have potential for what happened in New York to happen here or both. Each of those scenarios would be far more costly than using whatever policy levers we have right now like limiting certain settings (not just private ones) to lower capacities etc.

Do we think we are seeing growth in numbers due to the businesses that are open? Everything I see keeps pointing to private functions and university students returning to places like Western and Queens.

Though I suppose limiting the businesses that these people are going to after these parties, may limit the spread.

I don't think there is any way to parse that data out and sounds like a convenient defense of current government policy (fun fact the only person I know to have covid caught it the first time she went to an indoor bar). We have seen in literally every country that loosened restrictions on bars and restos that 2nd waves have occurred. Also philosophically how many people are having ragers with a ton of people? If the cap for bars and restos is 50 its still a heck of a lot more people congregating inside than most people following personal guidelines. I also think that if see an indoor limit that is different between their private homes and private establishments like restos and bars then it totally opens up temptation for rationalizing dumb behaviour. "If a resto has 50 why am I limited to 10?" Also, how many people are constantly hosting large scale parties anyway? If you have 20 close friends at a one off party vs. a bar constantly cycling new people in and out at 50 person max is there really a difference? Wouldn't it be worse considering the sheer number of people that go in and out of the restaurant every day? I think its posturing so they don't have to be the bad guys to close businesses. They also need clearer and more consistent policies so people don't have to think too hard about size limits when and where depending on place.

Universities: There was no reason not to have most of them have online learning only this year or have a strong testing strategy if there is in person classes. Absent both all you're doing is playing ignorant to current realities.

At the end of the day we have a few policy levers at our disposal and just saying well its private citizens fault is such a cop out to me. People absolutely have to do their parts, but I can see why people aren't if you're allowed to go to strip clubs and bars etc. If you mandate policies, explain them clearly and keep it fairly straightforward I think as Canadians we would follow the rules. We have not seen that imo in the last month or two.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

If you mandate policies, explain them clearly and keep it fairly straightforward I think as Canadians we would follow the rules. We have not seen that imo in the last month or two.

I think you're giving people way too much credit.

I personally think that locking down this time will prove far more difficult than in March and April. In March and April people were scared. Not so much any more.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

There are still a number of businesses that have been told they can't open their doors and operate still because of this pandemic. From the Ontario website:

Amusement parks and water parks
Buffet-style food services
Dancing at restaurants and bars, other than by performers hired by the establishment following specific requirements
Overnight stays at camps for children
Private karaoke rooms
Prolonged or deliberate contact while playing sports
Saunas, steam rooms, bath houses and oxygen bars
Table games at casinos and gaming establishments.

I guess I would just be curious to see what the criteria was for telling a person running a strip club that they could open while telling a person running a casino they can't (casinos I believe are beginning to open soon now).

 

[Bullfrog]

Except strip clubs aren't the only things open that aren't following their "safe reopening plans"

I don't think it's about adherence to a plan, I think the point here is that it seems as though not following a safe reopening plan is inherent to the nature of a strip club on top of its limited utility when compared to something like a restaurant.

I only go there for the fries and chicken wings.

 

[Frank E]

Except strip clubs aren't the only things open that aren't following their "safe reopening plans"

I don't think it's about adherence to a plan, I think the point here is that it seems as though not following a safe reopening plan is inherent to the nature of a strip club on top of its limited utility when compared to something like a restaurant.

I only go there for the fries and chicken wings.

Yeah, they've got a great steak dinner deal on Thursdays.

 

[Kin]

Try telling that to the guy running the night club.

Ok? I'd be fine to tell that guy the same thing.

And I'd probably agree.

My point is, he wouldn't. He's an entrepreneur. He's running a business that in his eyes probably isn't much different than Flannigan's Irish Pub.

The strip club owner or the night club owner? You've kind of lost me here.

Regardless though, he might think that. And if you could sell him on enforcing a social distancing plan and figuring out a way to collect customer information for tracing purposes in the event of an outbreak he might have a case that it's no different than a pub in how it relates to enforcing safety protocols. Admittedly, I don't know much about strip club economics but it feels like social distancing plus having to give your name at the door would result in such a natural fall off in business that saying they can't open would be probably preferable provided there was some level of government compensation.

But beyond that you've lost me a bit with your larger point. Is it that businesses that rely on a lot of people packing into places don't want to close? Because I think we all get that. Nobody likes what's happening. None of these safety precautions are being taken because governments are looking for fun new ways to clamp down on people's leisure time and whining about them doesn't change the necessity of them. Making exemptions for food service is reasonable and if people don't like that they're in the exact same position as a lot of people who disagree with laws.

 

[Kin]

I'm really enjoying the work of the UK government right now and how they're living up to every stereotype. They've restricted gatherings to 6 or fewer but made an exception for Grouse hunting. Now it comes out that their mandate requiring passengers in a car to wear a mask doesn't apply to chauffeur driven vehicles.

https://twitter.com/jayrayner1/status/1308778234172108800

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Seeing lots of stories about testing facilities getting slammed, especially in placed like Ottawa. This one about a Kitchener facility is wild though:

The Grand River Hospital says vehicles began to line up at 2:30 a.m. this morning, five hours before opening time.

Spokeswoman Cheryl Evans says that by 7:30 a.m., traffic was backed up on all the nearby side streets and the centre was already at capacity.

 

[Bender]

This article sums up my thoughts on things pretty nicely:

How Ontario could slow its growth in COVID-19 cases
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-covid-19-cases-coronavirus-fall-preparedeness-plan-1.5734141

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Try telling that to the guy running the night club.

Ok? I'd be fine to tell that guy the same thing.

And I'd probably agree.

My point is, he wouldn't. He's an entrepreneur. He's running a business that in his eyes probably isn't much different than Flannigan's Irish Pub.

The strip club owner or the night club owner? You've kind of lost me here.

Regardless though, he might think that. And if you could sell him on enforcing a social distancing plan and figuring out a way to collect customer information for tracing purposes in the event of an outbreak he might have a case that it's no different than a pub in how it relates to enforcing safety protocols. Admittedly, I don't know much about strip club economics but it feels like social distancing plus having to give your name at the door would result in such a natural fall off in business that saying they can't open would be probably preferable provided there was some level of government compensation.

But beyond that you've lost me a bit with your larger point. Is it that businesses that rely on a lot of people packing into places don't want to close? Because I think we all get that. Nobody likes what's happening. None of these safety precautions are being taken because governments are looking for fun new ways to clamp down on people's leisure time and whining about them doesn't change the necessity of them. Making exemptions for food service is reasonable and if people don't like that they're in the exact same position as a lot of people who disagree with laws.

I said right from the start that I don't think they're(strip clubs) a necessity. I also don't think they should be open. I only spoke from the point of view of the bar owner. That is all. Yes, you are correct that many business owners feel the same way.

My real point of contention was the comment about the government implementing classroom sizes of 15. It wasn't possible. How it went the way of strip clubs is beyond me.