Duchene & Turris traded

[Coco-puffs]

I think I framed my argument incorrectly.  I don't think I should have stated he "doesn't like it in Ottawa" because you are right- if he didn't, he probably wouldn't have been interested in a long-term extension there. 

What I meant is that he wasn't going to take any sort of discount to stay there- he wanted what he was going to shoot for in free agency.  Nashville, on the other hand, presents a better opportunity at winning a cup and thus a player may just be willing to take less to sign there.  That was my point.

Sure, maybe. But that said, Ottawa did make it to the conference finals last year and only got knocked out in game 7 in overtime. Viewed dispassionately...sure, maybe Nashville's better situated in the long term but it's not by leaps and bounds. Both teams have some compelling pieces and some question marks.

But to bring it back to what I think busta was getting at I don't think you can just look at what went down and say that Dorian must be telling the truth or that it just stands to reason that they couldn't have signed Turris to a similar deal. It seems to me like the truth almost certainly lies in the middle. There were reasons for Ottawa to be reluctant to give Turris a similar deal and they ended up with a player they like more. Ottawa may have been offering a 6 year deal at a lower AAV and that's what Turris didn't entertain.

Either way, I'd be pretty cautious about just taking Dorian's word for what went down with a lot of people saying he's the guy who lost his shirt in the deal.

Both Turris and Dorion have said a 6 yr deal was never part of the conversation.  Here is Turris responding to that question:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHxoBTINM2g

So Ottawa was offering less, Turris was asking for more.  They never got to the point of meeting in the middle- sure that could have happened down the road, but Ottawa wanted Duchene and had to give up Turris (plus) to get him.

As for Ottawa vs Nashville, and who's got a better chance at a cup now/short term I don't think there is any question its Nashville.  Their top 4 dmen are leaps and bounds ahead of the Sens, although Karlsson is the best in the game.  Nashville has a legit #1 center... Turris was their #1 and Mark Stone is probably the only other player I'd call a top-line player on the Sens.  I don't care how far Ottawa got last year, they aren't a cup contender.  Nashville is.

 

[bustaheims]

Either way, I'd be pretty cautious about just taking Dorian's word for what went down with a lot of people saying he's the guy who lost his shirt in the deal.

And, really, just in general, I wouldn't take what any GM says as the gospel truth. Even a poor negotiator like Dorion holds some cards close to his vest at all times.

 

[herman]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/31-thoughts-inside-matt-duchene-kyle-turris-blockbuster/

Many thoughts about this trade.

 

[Kin]

Both Turris and Dorion have said a 6 yr deal was never part of the conversation.  Here is Turris responding to that question:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHxoBTINM2g

So Ottawa was offering less, Turris was asking for more.  They never got to the point of meeting in the middle- sure that could have happened down the road, but Ottawa wanted Duchene and had to give up Turris (plus) to get him.

It didn't have to have happened down the road. Ottawa could have offered a 6 year deal whenever they wanted. Like you said earlier in the thread there's far more evidence here that Ottawa was just reluctant to sign Turris for 6 or more years than there is that Turris wouldn't have signed for 6 years in Ottawa.

As for Ottawa vs Nashville, and who's got a better chance at a cup now/short term I don't think there is any question its Nashville.  Their top 4 dmen are leaps and bounds ahead of the Sens, although Karlsson is the best in the game.  Nashville has a legit #1 center... Turris was their #1 and Mark Stone is probably the only other player I'd call a top-line player on the Sens.  I don't care how far Ottawa got last year, they aren't a cup contender.  Nashville is.

You might want to tell their record that.

Like I said, Nashville's got some things in their favour but they're also pretty depleted in terms of the farm system whereas Ottawa has quite a few high value prospects who could credibly be contributing in a few years.

Meanwhile, in terms of best three forwards mushed into a line Nashville goes Forsberg-Johansen-Arvidsson while Ottawa is Hoffman-Duchene-Stone. To me there's not much difference there. Then their second groupings are kind of equally crummy. Seriously, who is Nashville's 5th best forward right now? Jarnkrok? Fiala? Hartnell? Who in their system might credibly be in a few years? They're super thin on the wing and probably just traded their best prospect there. There's really no night and day difference between the two clubs.

 

[Coco-puffs]

Both Turris and Dorion have said a 6 yr deal was never part of the conversation.  Here is Turris responding to that question:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHxoBTINM2g

So Ottawa was offering less, Turris was asking for more.  They never got to the point of meeting in the middle- sure that could have happened down the road, but Ottawa wanted Duchene and had to give up Turris (plus) to get him.

It didn't have to have happened down the road. Ottawa could have offered a 6 year deal whenever they wanted. Like you said earlier in the thread there's far more evidence here that Ottawa was just reluctant to sign Turris for 6 or more years than there is that Turris wouldn't have signed for 6 years in Ottawa.

As for Ottawa vs Nashville, and who's got a better chance at a cup now/short term I don't think there is any question its Nashville.  Their top 4 dmen are leaps and bounds ahead of the Sens, although Karlsson is the best in the game.  Nashville has a legit #1 center... Turris was their #1 and Mark Stone is probably the only other player I'd call a top-line player on the Sens.  I don't care how far Ottawa got last year, they aren't a cup contender.  Nashville is.

You might want to tell their record that.

Like I said, Nashville's got some things in their favour but they're also pretty depleted in terms of the farm system whereas Ottawa has quite a few high value prospects who could credibly be contributing in a few years.

Meanwhile, in terms of best three forwards mushed into a line Nashville goes Forsberg-Johansen-Arvidsson while Ottawa is Hoffman-Duchene-Stone. To me there's not much difference there. Then their second groupings are kind of equally crummy. Seriously, who is Nashville's 5th best forward right now? Jarnkrok? Fiala? Hartnell? Who in their system might credibly be in a few years? They're super thin on the wing and probably just traded their best prospect there. There's really no night and day difference between the two clubs.

Um, if Turris resigned in Ottawa Duchene wouldn't be there.  Ottawa wouldn't have paid Sakic's ask (young d-man, ie Chabot) to add Duchene and keep Turris. Nevermind Melnyk not paying more in salary than the current budget.

As for Nashville's record:  Josi missed 3 games due to injury and Ryan Ellis has been out since the start of the year.  They are also in a playoff spot, so its not like they are pulling an Oilers or Habs right now.

 

[Kin]

Um, if Turris resigned in Ottawa Duchene wouldn't be there.  Ottawa wouldn't have paid Sakic's ask (young d-man, ie Chabot) to add Duchene and keep Turris. Nevermind Melnyk not paying more in salary than the current budget.

Right, so if you're comparing Ottawa pre-trade vs. Nashville post trade I think it's also probably worth mentioning that the issue isn't how you dispassionately weigh the teams but how Turris would have seen both situations. There's a fair chance that Turris maybe doesn't see himself as someone who isn't a legit #1 C or clearly inferior to Johansen. Likewise, while you might not care how deep Ottawa got last year my guess is that Turris would look at getting knocked out in OT of game 7 of the conference finals as being somewhat indicative of that group's quality, especially with Karlsson playing hurt.

Sure, maybe he'd see himself as part of a better 1-2 punch in Nashville but maybe he thinks Brassard is better than he showed last year and is more of a legit #2 than we do. Maybe he prefers the idea of playing with better wingers in Ottawa than he's likely to in Nashville.

So, again, I'm not particularly convinced he'd see Nashville as a huge upgrade for him personally.

 

[Omallley]

Tough start to his career in Ottawa - Duchene has 2 goals, 2 assist and is -11 through 14 games. Turris has 3 goals, 10 assists through the same number of games.