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Game 38: Leafs @ Devils - Apr. 6, 7:00pm - CBC, TSN 1050

Nik said:
Bonsixx said:
I don't know, I think he's done a pretty good job.

I didn't say he hadn't. I said that the Leafs recent history has nothing to do with that.

Coaches are largely judged on how well their teams do relative to expectations.

Recent team history matters because it is one of the best indications of how well a team can be expected to perform. It's not decisive, but it is relevant.
 
Gilmour the Great said:
Coaches are largely judged on how well their teams do relative to expectations.

Hence why I think the way we judge coaches, and therefore the Adams, is bogus. That it's widespread doesn't make it any better.
 
Gilmour the Great said:
Agree to disagree.

You're free to disagree all you want but you're still not actually making a case for Randy Carlyle's coaching simply by saying that the team exceeded some sort of commonly assumed expectation.

Two people, for instance, specifically mentioned the improved penalty killing as something Carlyle should get credit for. But right now the Leafs have 10 players who have played in 10+ games and are averaging more than a minute per game on the penalty kill. Of those 10 players, 6 are new to the team this year. Does Randy Carlyle deserve credit for the fact that Jay McClement is a good penalty killer? What is he actually doing that's yielding improved results?

The reality is that expectations are often wrong for all sorts of reasons. Does Carlyle deserve the credit for the improved goaltending? If so, why? What has he done? Or Kadri? Because I think most people would say that the improvement in net and surprises like Kadri are the reason this team are doing better than a Lot of people thought they were.

A ton of things go into a team's season and people's expectations are often wrong. The Leafs have completely turned their roster over in the last four years. Why in the world would anything before those last four years be factored into the equation? Why would a coach get credit for an improvement based on a change in personnel?

Again, I'm not necessarily saying Carlyle doesn't deserve the credit for these things but I think we need to at least attempt to explain what it is in Carlyle's coaching that is yielding these results before we just decide that any gaps between what we expect and what happens is a result of coaching. We may not be X's and O's guys but we can do better than "B followed A, therefore A caused B".
 
OK, I'll explain it.  Randy Carlyle is choosing to play Jay McClement on the PK.  A lot.  Like every time.  He could have chosen Phil Kessel.  Or Ben Scrivens. 

Q.E.D.
 
Yes I think it is crazy not to think that RC wouldn't get consideration for the Jack Adams if the season were to end today.  Even with our constant complaints about lineup decisions, fact remains that those questionable decisions have produced results and those results are above and beyond what anybody could have forecast for this season.
 
The thing about parity, though, is that it's naturally going to produce unexpected results. Did anyone in the world expect two of the teams challenging for the president's trophy to be Anaheim and Montreal? Or that "challenging" in my first sentence would be optimistic because Chicago didn't lose for the first half of the season?

Or what about Phoenix? Their roster stinks but Dave Tippett has been getting good results out of a crappy team for so long that we've come to expect it. Does that mean he's no longer doing a good job as a coach?
 
Nik said:
The thing about parity, though, is that it's naturally going to produce unexpected results. Did anyone in the world expect two of the teams challenging for the president's trophy to be Anaheim and Montreal? Or that "challenging" in my first sentence would be optimistic because Chicago didn't lose for the first half of the season?

Or what about Phoenix? Their roster stinks but Dave Tippett has been getting good results out of a crappy team for so long that we've come to expect it. Does that mean he's no longer doing a good job as a coach?

Teams don't need coaches at all. Just let them make their own lineups and switch themselves. All the teams with the best talent will rise to the top all the time.
 
Randy deserves credit for the PK.  They played a pretty stagnant box/diamond (depending on what Ron had for breakfast) before, relying on shot blocks and the goalie's ability to make saves on uncontested shots.  Now it's constant puck-pressure.

The fact that everyone knew Ron should have implemented the present system earlier doesn't mean Randy shouldn't get credit for actually making the change.
 
Zee said:
Nik said:
The thing about parity, though, is that it's naturally going to produce unexpected results. Did anyone in the world expect two of the teams challenging for the president's trophy to be Anaheim and Montreal? Or that "challenging" in my first sentence would be optimistic because Chicago didn't lose for the first half of the season?

Or what about Phoenix? Their roster stinks but Dave Tippett has been getting good results out of a crappy team for so long that we've come to expect it. Does that mean he's no longer doing a good job as a coach?

Teams don't need coaches at all. Just let them make their own lineups and switch themselves. All the teams with the best talent will rise to the top all the time.

CAUTION : Sarcasm detected. Clear the area !
 
Zee said:
Nik said:
The thing about parity, though, is that it's naturally going to produce unexpected results. Did anyone in the world expect two of the teams challenging for the president's trophy to be Anaheim and Montreal? Or that "challenging" in my first sentence would be optimistic because Chicago didn't lose for the first half of the season?

Or what about Phoenix? Their roster stinks but Dave Tippett has been getting good results out of a crappy team for so long that we've come to expect it. Does that mean he's no longer doing a good job as a coach?

Teams don't need coaches at all. Just let them make their own lineups and switch themselves. All the teams with the best talent will rise to the top all the time.

It certainly would make a big difference from sports in general where...all the teams with the best talent rise to the top all the time.
 
Strangelove said:
Randy deserves credit for the PK.  They played a pretty stagnant box/diamond (depending on what Ron had for breakfast) before, relying on shot blocks and the goalie's ability to make saves on uncontested shots.  Now it's constant puck-pressure.

The fact that everyone knew Ron should have implemented the present system earlier doesn't mean Randy shouldn't get credit for actually making the change.

How do we factor in the Asst Coaches here? RW ignored them totally?
 

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