Game of Thrones (S7)

[herman]

Clearly, I'm jotting these notes as I go:

I really really enjoy the dragon motif.

Cersei's outfit = 100

Walking and talking reunions always welcome.

"Can they swim?"

Theon's Shaolin technique. (He also holds his left pinky tucked out of finger of the glove, per his torture)

Missed opportunity to visually call back Petyr and Ned (even though they referenced it directly).

Valyrian steel is apparently stainless.

Lannister vs. Lannister acting is usually the best of the show.

Casting of Aerys, Viserys, and Rhaegar: spot on.

Tyrion sees the sock on the cabin door from down the hall.

The ending was a good use of the budget.

Now I am afraid of raspy cellos.

 

[Kin]

[tweet]901993960159268865[/tweet]

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

Arya is truly terrifying. 

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I kinda wish the middle parts of this season were more like this and the finale had a bit more going on. But for an episode that was pretty predictable and devoid of any big twists, it was very good. I guess the biggest shock would be that Jamie turned and left, but we all knew that was happening eventually. That was a very well done scene though. I was actually pretty worried for him there. Sure hope he told Bronn to high-tail it out of there too because without Jamie Kings Landing is a very dangerous place for him.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Missed opportunity to visually call back Petyr and Ned (even though they referenced it directly).

They kinda did the visual call back of that earlier in the season with Jon and Littlefinger when they were in the crypt.

 

[herman]

I kinda wish the middle parts of this season were more like this and the finale had a bit more going on. But for an episode that was pretty predictable and devoid of any big twists, it was very good. I guess the biggest shock would be that Jamie turned and left, but we all knew that was happening eventually. That was a very well done scene though. I was actually pretty worried for him there. Sure hope he told Bronn to high-tail it out of there too because without Jamie Kings Landing is a very dangerous place for him.

One of the concerns with Jaime leaving King's Landing now is it strips the Lannister plot of humanity and redemptive complexity. It's Daenerys + Jon's group with all their interesting relationships (ha) and complex backstories vs a Force of Nature to the north and the human epitome of evil to the south. It's the standard Good vs Evil of staid fantasy, rather than the Gray vs Gray that's way more interesting (to me).

In any case, the episode was pretty fantastic, other than the weird Winterfell ones where they tried to be politically twisty but just ended up having no plausible routes taken. Aiden Gillen acted the hell out of it anyway, and it sucks to lose such a foil.

 

[Kin]

So in the light of day, here's my question with this episode. Is anyone else a little confused by what exactly we were supposed to think went on at Winterfell? My take away is that we're supposed to think that the tension between Arya and Sansa was genuine up until what we saw last night and Littlefinger's scheming sort of convinced Sansa to take him out but does that make a ton of sense? She knew he killed her aunt and her aunt's husband and she knew he sold her to the Boltons. But somehow it's his trying to drive a wedge between her and her sister that convinces her to have him killed? Or did Bran drop the knowledge about his betrayal of Ned secretly before the trial?

Ultimately I feel like this ending didn't really do well by Littlefinger who'd been one of the better characters up to this point. His final gambit was sort of half-heartedly pushing Sansa into having some sort of discord with her family? Despite the fact that even if he succeeded Jon is still King in the North?

But moreover I really feel like they lost the plot with him. I get him wanting to start trouble in the North but did it ever make sense that the assassin trying to kill Bran had anyone's fancy dagger? Likewise I get betraying Ned and killing the crazy lady of the Vale but did we ever get a decent reason as to what the end game was with giving Sansa to the Boltons?

 

[herman]

So in the light of day, here's my question with this episode. Is anyone else a little confused by what exactly we were supposed to think went on at Winterfell? My take away is that we're supposed to think that the tension between Arya and Sansa was genuine up until what we saw last night and Littlefinger's scheming sort of convinced Sansa to take him out but does that make a ton of sense? She knew he killed her aunt and her aunt's husband and she knew he sold her to the Boltons. But somehow it's his trying to drive a wedge between her and her sister that convinces her to have him killed? Or did Bran drop the knowledge about his betrayal of Ned secretly before the trial?

Ultimately I feel like this ending didn't really do well by Littlefinger who'd been one of the better characters up to this point. His final gambit was sort of half-heartedly pushing Sansa into having some sort of discord with her family? Despite the fact that even if he succeeded Jon is still King in the North?

But moreover I really feel like they lost the plot with him. I get him wanting to start trouble in the North but did it ever make sense that the assassin trying to kill Bran had anyone's fancy dagger? Likewise I get betraying Ned and killing the crazy lady of the Vale but did we ever get a decent reason as to what the end game was with giving Sansa to the Boltons?

I won't bother spinning theories about what the showrunners/writers were angling for with the fall of Littlefinger (other than comeuppance for conniving? Thesis statement appeared to be Sansa saying he's a slow learner, but she learns.). Littlefinger selling Sansa to the Boltons was a failed power play to get the North under his control (via Ramsay via Sansa) the way he got the Vale via Robyn via Lysa/Sansa. The failure was due to Littlefinger getting overconfident after successfully pulling off his long-game with Lysa/Cersei and not doing his homework on Ramsay.

 

[Kin]

I won't bother spinning theories about what the showrunners/writers were angling for with the fall of Littlefinger (other than comeuppance for conniving? Thesis statement appeared to be Sansa saying he's a slow learner, but she learns.). Littlefinger selling Sansa to the Boltons was a failed power play to get the North under his control (via Ramsay via Sansa) the way he got the Vale via Robyn via Lysa/Sansa. The failure was due to Littlefinger getting overconfident after successfully pulling off his long-game with Lysa/Cersei and not doing his homework on Ramsay.

Ok? But Ramsey's dad was still alive then and in theory looking to procreate. So his control over the North would have come how? Even if Ramsey was a pushover or whatever Littlefinger wanted him to be then you're still talking about presumably decades before Ramsey is even in power in the North without his Dad fathering a legitimate heir.

So I get that giving Sansa to the Boltons makes him an ally in the Boltons but that seems like some pretty small potatoes for the world's biggest schemer.

Or are you saying that his assumption was that Sansa would somehow turn into a Lady Macbeth type and scheme to control the North through Ramsey(by presumably orchestrating his father's fall) and ultimately still be loyal to Littlefinger despite the fact that he sold her to the family that betrayed and murdered her mother/brother?

Either way, that is not A grade scheming.

 

[herman]

Ok? But Ramsey's dad was still alive then and in theory looking to procreate. So his control over the North would have come how? Even if Ramsey was a pushover or whatever Littlefinger wanted him to be then you're still talking about presumably decades before Ramsey is even in power in the North without his Dad fathering a legitimate heir.

So I get that giving Sansa to the Boltons makes him an ally in the Boltons but that seems like some pretty small potatoes for the world's biggest schemer.

Or are you saying that his assumption was that Sansa would somehow turn into a Lady Macbeth type and scheme to control the North through Ramsey(by presumably orchestrating his father's fall) and ultimately still be loyal to Littlefinger despite the fact that he sold her to the family that betrayed and murdered her mother/brother?

Either way, that is not A grade scheming.

Littlefinger isn't ever about direct string pulling, so I was thinking more along the lines of him gifting them Sansa, the sole surviving Stark as far as the world knew, to legitimize the Boltons' hold over Winterfell, seat of the North. As the Northmen are all about their words and their mantras, their bannermen all know that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

I don't think there was any initial angling by Littlefinger to control the North directly by undercutting Roose, but rather giving him a political leg-up and getting a handful of IOUs in the war to come against Cersei (whom he left in a modicum of chaos with Joffrey's murder). Littlefinger understood that no army would fight for him by name, but if he was attached to the North, and the East (the two remaining armies that still had numbers), he could position himself for opportunity.

The way it plays out in my head for Littlefinger's long(er) game is that Cersei rises against the North once the Boltons turn on the Lannisters with Tywin gone and hearing of Sansa in Winterfell again. She calls on Littlefinger, who was just gifted Harrenhal (to marry into controlling the Vale) for flanking maneuvers. He lets the two sides bash each other, sweeps in like the Riders of Rohan to save whoever is winning. I assume the Boltons are executed for treason or die in the field, and Littlefinger whispers to Cersei something to the effect of letting him marry Sansa because Northerners only listen to Starks.

After that he calls on his Tyrell allies ad Dornish revenge-seekers and they pincer the Lannisters at King's Landing, ousting/executing Cersei and Jaime via public outcry over incest, with Littlefinger in control of the North via Sansa, the East via Robyn, the West via Tyrells, and the throne via Margaery/hostage-Tommen.

 

[Kin]

Woof, well, I can't argue with any of that but that seems pretty convoluted not to, you know, detail at some point.

I guess this is where book readin' will come into play.

 

[herman]

Woof, well, I can't argue with any of that but that seems pretty convoluted not to, you know, detail at some point.

I guess this is where book readin' will come into play.

In the books, the Boltons, upon taking Winterfell, are facing insurrection from the Northerners and seek to stake their claim through legitimacy by marrying Ramsay to Arya Stark. Arya's wandering in Braavos, but Tywin and Littlefinger pick up Sansa's best friend Jeyne Poole, daughter of Ned's steward Vayon, to play the role of Arya (no internet, no facial recognition, everyone who knew her up there is dead) and serve her up to the Boltons as a favour. Sansa's role was melded with this storyline.

The show skipped out on a lot of potential Littlefingering. I know their writers couldn't keep up with the yarn wall stuff, so they basically sidelined him and then killed him off for the simplicity of a Good vs Evil story. Same thing with Varys, who has done nothing but keep his hands warm in his pockets since he met up with Daenerys (they neutered his book story in the show).

Edit: I was looking up some show info and it turns out Littlefinger was the one that, after arranging the Stark-Bolton marriage, turned around to let Cersei know where Sansa went. She was about to send the army at the Boltons when Littlefinger suggested that they let Stannis soften them up first after which he could sweep in with the Knights of the Vale. Right after that he turns around to work with Olenna to have Cersei indicted on incest charges with the Faith Militant.

So I have some rewatching of the middle seasons to do.

 

[Kin]

I more meant that when books come out detailing what we saw this season we(well, not me, you) will have a better sense of Littlefinger's ultimate plan.

 

[herman]

I more meant that when books come out detailing what we saw this season we(well, not me, you) will have a better sense of Littlefinger's ultimate plan.

It's pretty hard to keep the two separated in my mind, so I've got about two years to re-read and re-watch. It's pretty clear on the show where Littlefinger loses steam because they ran out of book material.

I think Littlefinger doesn't really have a route mapped to how he wants to achieve his goals. He really only has two desires: marry Catelyn (now Sansa), and claim the throne. His method is simple: make himself indispensable to everyone by making an alliance and make sure it is already technically broken by an alliance with at least one of their enemies so he can be in position to capitalize on the ensuing chaos.

 

[herman]

Look at their faces in the Dragonstone map-room scene:

Jon: The Dothraki will ride out for Winterfell, while I take the Unsullied
by boat to White Harbour, and then on to Winterfell.

Jorah: My queen, if you ride with the caravan to Winterfell, someone might play hero and shoot you dead.
Tyrion: My queen, you should fly to Winterfell. It is safer.

Jon: I think it will look better to the North if you come... I mean ride on my... I mean boat's good.

Dany: *just a twinge of a smirk* Yeah, boat sounds good.
Tyrion: *sigh
Jorah: *sigh
Davos: *eyeballs
Jon: ...  8)

 

[Kin]

I think Littlefinger doesn't really have a route mapped to how he wants to achieve his goals.

Which, like I'm saying, feels like a bit of a departure from the ultimate string-puller he was at the beginning.

But, like you say, they'd run out of gas with him. It was his time to go. I just wish we might have had slightly better fleshing out of his aims.

Anyhoo, looking forward I think the real challenge for the final season is going to be investing any real drama into the fight against the Zombies. This show has always been at its best when its been about complex, nuanced characters with competing agendas and less successful with fairly one dimensional villains(Joffrey, Ramsey, Euron). Going up against a force of nature like Team Zombie doesn't seem to be their strong suit so here's hoping there's more to it than last minute dragon saves and death fake-outs.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I'll be pretty bummed if that's how Tormund dies. They would have been much better off having him die by sacrificing himself to save Jon while they were beyond the wall as opposed to a crappy off-screen death like that.

But I'm gonna stick with the old TV rule of if you don't see them die then they're not dead.

 

[bustaheims]

But I'm gonna stick with the old TV rule of if you don't see them die then they're not dead.

That's what I'm thinking here, too. A character that has gotten as much screen time as he has over the last couple seasons? He gets an on-screen death, not an implied one.

 

[herman]

Which, like I'm saying, feels like a bit of a departure from the ultimate string-puller he was at the beginning.

But, like you say, they'd run out of gas with him. It was his time to go. I just wish we might have had slightly better fleshing out of his aims.

I believe he looked like the ultimate string puller because we were dropped into the story as his moves were coming to fruition. It's a bit of a metaphor for GRRM's writing* too, as he's a write until something happens type of author, rather than pre-mapping out everything.

Anyhoo, looking forward I think the real challenge for the final season is going to be investing any real drama into the fight against the Zombies. This show has always been at its best when its been about complex, nuanced characters with competing agendas and less successful with fairly one dimensional villains(Joffrey, Ramsey, Euron). Going up against a force of nature like Team Zombie doesn't seem to be their strong suit so here's hoping there's more to it than last minute dragon saves and death fake-outs.

Agreed. It'll be fun conventional fantasy (maybe a couple of twists here or there). Mostly a D&D this-would-be-cool-to-see festival I think. They really nailed the dragon designs.

* Spoiler Alert: here's a 1993 letter by GRRM pitching his story as a trilogy with his early ideas for how it all plays out.

Dear Ralph,

Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling A Game of Thrones. When completed, this will be the first in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, A Song of Ice and Fire.

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle characters in the drama.

Also a heads up if you're reading that letter above: incest!

 

[Bullfrog]

Ya, I'm convinced he's still alive. He probably eats it in the next episode, but I think he gets a proper death.