General Leafs Talk: Post-Olympics Edition

[CarltonTheBear]

Gardiner for Adam Foote.  Straight up.

Roll your eyes all you want, but, nothing helps a team's defensive game like not having to play defence.

This is NHL head coach and former Jack Adams winner Dave Tippett on the subject:

"I'll give you an example," he said. "We had a player that was supposed to be a great, shut-down defenseman. He was supposedly the be-all, end-all of defensemen. But when you did a 10-game analysis of him, you found out he was defending all the time because he can't move the puck.

"Then we had another guy, who supposedly couldn't defend a lick. Well, he was defending only 20 percent of the time because he's making good plays out of our end. He may not be the strongest defender, but he's only doing it 20 percent of the time. So the equation works out better the other way. I ended up trading the other defenseman."

 

[Highlander]

Holland should slot in at #2 and move Kadri to #3? Amazin Nazim needs the extra kick to be great and he can be great but I think Holland is going to be very good.

 

[ZBBM]

:

Gardiner for Adam Foote.  Straight up.

8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Roll your eyes all you want, but, nothing helps a team's defensive game like not having to play defence.

  Just giving you the ol' needle a bit.  A little more support from the forwards, and he'll stop being "Lottery Jake" with the daily giveaways.  Then you'll have yourself a guy who's a bonafide excitement bomb.

As long as they get rid of El Capitan, it's all goodness. 

 

[ZBBM]

Gardiner for Adam Foote.  Straight up.

Roll your eyes all you want, but, nothing helps a team's defensive game like not having to play defence.

This is NHL head coach and former Jack Adams winner Dave Tippett on the subject:

"I'll give you an example," he said. "We had a player that was supposed to be a great, shut-down defenseman. He was supposedly the be-all, end-all of defensemen. But when you did a 10-game analysis of him, you found out he was defending all the time because he can't move the puck.

"Then we had another guy, who supposedly couldn't defend a lick. Well, he was defending only 20 percent of the time because he's making good plays out of our end. He may not be the strongest defender, but he's only doing it 20 percent of the time. So the equation works out better the other way. I ended up trading the other defenseman."

How many Cups has Dave Tippett won?

How many Cups have I won?

If those two numbers are equal, then I know as much as he does.

EDIT: BTW, all that quote proves is that Tippett was wrong about the guy being a good shutdown defenseman.

 

[ZBBM]

Holland should slot in at #2 and move Kadri to #3? Amazin Nazim needs the extra kick to be great and he can be great but I think Holland is going to be very good.

With all due respect, doesn't it seem that there are many folks over-rating Holland a wee bit at this point?  He's been pretty good in the games he's played so far, and he may be a really good NHL centerman, but he hasn't proven much of anything yet.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

EDIT: BTW, all that quote proves is that Tippett was wrong about the guy being a good shutdown defenseman.

Kinda missing the point.

 

[ZBBM]

EDIT: BTW, all that quote proves is that Tippett was wrong about the guy being a good shutdown defenseman.

Kinda missing the point.

Which is ... that there's no such thing as a good shutdown defenseman?

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Which is ... that there's no such thing as a good shutdown defenseman?

The point was more in the second paragraph. Everybody thinks that a good defensive defenceman should be able to hit, clear the crease, block shots, things of that nature. But one of the best traits a defenceman could have is not having to play defence in the first place. Being able to get the puck out of your zone so your team can try to score as opposed to your team having to try to not get scored on.

That's a trait that a lot of "shutdown defencemen" don't have because they can't effectively move the puck. So to your point, it's not that there aren't any good shutdown defencemen, it's that they are incredibly hard to find and most of them only rack of hits and blocked shots because the puck is in their end more often than not.

 

[mr grieves]

Holland should slot in at #2 and move Kadri to #3? Amazin Nazim needs the extra kick to be great and he can be great but I think Holland is going to be very good.

With all due respect, doesn't it seem that there are many folks over-rating Holland a wee bit at this point?  He's been pretty good in the games he's played so far, and he may be a really good NHL centerman, but he hasn't proven much of anything yet.

Yep. But based on what he's shown so far, he'd be great on cheapie 3rd/4th line designed to bring the AHLers up, be an energetic bunch that moves the puck in the right direction, and chip in some tertiary offense. There's less risk and more reward in that than a trio of gritty intangibles that can only be played 4 minutes a night.

Looking ahead, Leafs need to be able to roll 4 lines, as it'll do no good next season to have your top 6 falling apart because the team leans on its top 3 lines more than any other in the league.

Edit: ... which is something Mirtle pointed out, and for which he has league-wide comparables.

In fact, if you look around the league, Carlyle is more reluctant to use his bottom 10 to 12 forwards than almost any other coach. Only the Vancouver Canucks? John Tortorella has had a shorter bench leaguewide, playing his fourth liners less than seven minutes a game ? or about a minute less than the Leafs generally offer theirs.

That?s had a ripple effect through the Toronto lineup, as every other unit is expected to play a lot. The top line of Kessel, Bozak and James van Riemsdyk, for example, averages nearly 21 minutes a game ? the second highest in the NHL behind only Vancouver?s top three forwards.

The Leafs second line, meanwhile, is the third-most used second unit in the NHL. And their third line ? usually made up of Nikolai Kulemin, Jay McClement and David Clarkson, a trio that has combined for nine goals all year ? is the most played third line in the league with an average of 16.5 minutes a night.

Toronto?s third line has actually played more than six other teams? second lines.

source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/leafs-beat/mirtle-leafs-short-bench-in-for-test-during-busy-schedule/article16249640/

 

[bustaheims]

The point was more in the second paragraph. Everybody thinks that a good defensive defenceman should be able to hit, clear the crease, block shots, things of that nature. But one of the best traits a defenceman could have is not having to play defence in the first place. Being able to get the puck out of your zone so your team can try to score as opposed to your team having to try to not get scored on.

That's a trait that a lot of "shutdown defencemen" don't have because they can't effectively move the puck. So to your point, it's not that there aren't any good shutdown defencemen, it's that they are incredibly hard to find and most of them only rack of hits and blocked shots because the puck is in their end more often than not.

I mean, it seems pretty simple to me. How is having a guy that hits and blocks a lot shots because the team is stuck in their own end most of the time he's on the ice better for the team than having a guy who might not do those things all that much but does an excellent job of getting and keeping the puck out of his team's end? I don't care how much you hit and block shots. If the puck is on the other team's stick in your team's defensive end most of the time you're on the ice, there's going to be a lot of goals scored against you and your team isn't going to score many. On the flip side, if the puck is on your team's stick and somewhere other than the defensive end most of the time you're on the ice, you're not going to have a lot of goals scored against you and your team will hopefully be able to score quite a few.

The best way to play defence is for your team to have the puck more. There's really no argument. When your team has the puck, the other team isn't generating offence.

 

[ZBBM]

And unless you are the Blues playing us last time no team has the puck 100% of the time. One of the big concepts of defense is that you actually have to have at least one or two defenseman who can play it. You guys by your logic we ought to be icing 6 Gardiners. It would make for a lot of nice football scores but we'd be losing more than winning.

 

[Tigger]

The point was more in the second paragraph. Everybody thinks that a good defensive defenceman should be able to hit, clear the crease, block shots, things of that nature. But one of the best traits a defenceman could have is not having to play defence in the first place. Being able to get the puck out of your zone so your team can try to score as opposed to your team having to try to not get scored on.

That's a trait that a lot of "shutdown defencemen" don't have because they can't effectively move the puck. So to your point, it's not that there aren't any good shutdown defencemen, it's that they are incredibly hard to find and most of them only rack of hits and blocked shots because the puck is in their end more often than not.

I mean, it seems pretty simple to me. How is having a guy that hits and blocks a lot shots because the team is stuck in their own end most of the time he's on the ice better for the team than having a guy who might not do those things all that much but does an excellent job of getting and keeping the puck out of his team's end? I don't care how much you hit and block shots. If the puck is on the other team's stick in your team's defensive end most of the time you're on the ice, there's going to be a lot of goals scored against you and your team isn't going to score many. On the flip side, if the puck is on your team's stick and somewhere other than the defensive end most of the time you're on the ice, you're not going to have a lot of goals scored against you and your team will hopefully be able to score quite a few.

The best way to play defence is for your team to have the puck more. There's really no argument. When your team has the puck, the other team isn't generating offence.

In that very specific example, yeah, but there's 5 other guys on the ice usually too that they have to work with and breakdowns occur all the time. If your team needs a guy who hits ( checks, puck battles, tries to change possession ) and blocks shots that's fine, especially on the PK. Ideally you'd also like that player to be able to skate and pass out of trouble more often than not.

So sure, having 6 Gleasons playing D would be bad but having one is something you can live with short term.

 

[Joe S.]

Holland should slot in at #2 and move Kadri to #3? Amazin Nazim needs the extra kick to be great and he can be great but I think Holland is going to be very good.

With all due respect, doesn't it seem that there are many folks over-rating Holland a wee bit at this point?  He's been pretty good in the games he's played so far, and he may be a really good NHL centerman, but he hasn't proven much of anything yet.

60% of the time the player that isn't playing is better than the one who is everytime.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Holland should slot in at #2 and move Kadri to #3? Amazin Nazim needs the extra kick to be great and he can be great but I think Holland is going to be very good.

With all due respect, doesn't it seem that there are many folks over-rating Holland a wee bit at this point?  He's been pretty good in the games he's played so far, and he may be a really good NHL centerman, but he hasn't proven much of anything yet.

60% of the time the player that isn't playing is better than the one who is everytime.

I like those odds.

 

[Kin]

The point was more in the second paragraph. Everybody thinks that a good defensive defenceman should be able to hit, clear the crease, block shots, things of that nature. But one of the best traits a defenceman could have is not having to play defence in the first place.

Except that's largely a meaningless phrase because "not having to play defence" isn't a trait and the things that determine whether or not a team is in their own end or their opponents' end is very rarely going to be the result of any one player's abilities.

Think of it in football terms. One of the best things a defender in Football can do is intercept a pass because then the team gets to stop playing defense, right? But does that mean that defenses have turned into nothing but guys with great hands, looking to ball hawk? No, because the actual act of intercepting the ball relies on lots of things, pressure on the quarterback and good team coverage and the decisions the opposing quarterback makes and so on.

The same sort of applies here. The ability to win the puck and the ability to keep it won are two separate skill groups that both contribute to defensive hockey. If Sid Crosby has the puck on the half boards on the power play...how important is a defenseman's skating vs. his hockey sense that lets him stick with his man and read the play, his ability to dispossess whether with a hit or his stick? Puck possession, rather than an individual attribute, is a result of team play and players do need to be evaluated on their abilities in all situations because most of the time where the puck happens to be is only marginally dictated by them.

I agree that our perception of what makes for a good defender needs to evolve from your Hal Gill types(although he was very good at playing in his own end at times) and more to guys who are good at both but let's not pretend that the concept of a good defensive defenseman emerged once the NHL started releasing real time stats either. Nik Lidstrom wasn't a bad defensive defenseman because he didn't throw a ton of hits or block a bunch shots but what made him good is a lot more complex than "moving the puck" also.

 

[IJustLurkHere]

How many Cups has Dave Tippett won?

How many Cups have I won?

If those two numbers are equal, then I know as much as he does

Damien Cox, is that you?

 

[Leaflifer]

Gardiner for Adam Foote.  Straight up.

Roll your eyes all you want, but, nothing helps a team's defensive game like not having to play defence.

This is NHL head coach and former Jack Adams winner Dave Tippett on the subject:

"I'll give you an example," he said. "We had a player that was supposed to be a great, shut-down defenseman. He was supposedly the be-all, end-all of defensemen. But when you did a 10-game analysis of him, you found out he was defending all the time because he can't move the puck.

"Then we had another guy, who supposedly couldn't defend a lick. Well, he was defending only 20 percent of the time because he's making good plays out of our end. He may not be the strongest defender, but he's only doing it 20 percent of the time. So the equation works out better the other way. I ended up trading the other defenseman."

It's called the Kaberle/MaCabe conundrum.

I'm calling it that anyway. Kaberle was a good example of this in his prime. He was not the strongest defender in his own end. But if he got to the puck first if was out of the leaf zone fast.

 

[ZBBM]

turfem

 

[bustaheims]

I'm not an advanced stats guy, but, this is funny.

Posted on October 29th:

simmonssteve: Good thing the Leafs don't play in the CHL. The CORSI hockey league. They're doing just fine in NHL, though.

The Leafs played with fire all season. No one should be surprised that it burned them in the end.

 

[bustaheims]

Leafs "tragic" number is now 2 with Detroit, 5 with Columbus and 6 with New Jersey. Even if they run the table, they could also be passed by the Caps.