Habs @ Leafs - Mar. 22nd, 7:00pm - CBC, SN 590

[Redleaf]

Playoff teams are bailed out quite often by elite goaltending. It really wouldn't be anything new.

Sure, but, playoff teams don't require it in 95% of their games, like the Leafs have this season.

Where did you pull that number from?

Have you watched the Leafs this season? I'd say that's a fairly accurate estimate based on their season so far.

Leafs have outshot their opponents 14 times this season and have been even in shots 2 times.  That leaves 56 times the Leafs have been outshot by the opposition.  56 times in 72 games, or 78% of their games.

Thank-you. And just because they were outshot in those games, it doesn't mean they won them all of because their goaltender bailed them out every single time. So that number should be even lower.

 

[bustaheims]

Leafs have outshot their opponents 14 times this season and have been even in shots 2 times.  That leaves 56 times the Leafs have been outshot by the opposition.  56 times in 72 games, or 78% of their games.

That's only part of the story, though. In a number of the games where the Leafs outshot their opponent or were even, they still let the other team have way too many quality chances or left elite players virtually untouched all night.

 

[Highlander]

The difference in last nights game was goaltending, if Bernier had played Leafs would have won. They had a lot of jump coming back and Kessel, Lupul, Kadri and JVR where flying.  Hell Reilly and Gardiner both hit the post with great chances. We need the Big B back in net. or give Mac a chance but Reimer is sucking the hind tit. (and I have always been a big supporter of James but it is time for him to seek a new team).

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

We are NOT a playoff team kids....

No with Reimer in net, I agree. On the other hand, The team plays way more like one with Bernier between the pipes.

No they don't, they simply have received elite goaltending to bail them out.  With Bernier in net they've still been getting outshot by a ton all season long, he's just played like one of the top goalies in the league.

Playoff teams are bailed out quite often by elite goaltending. It really wouldn't be anything new.

Which teams?  If those teams need elite goaltending to have a chance to make the playoffs like the Leafs, then the same criticisms apply to them.  But I doubt any playoff team in the league faces the issue to the degree that the Leafs do considering they are on pace to give up the most shots in history.

You honestly don't believe there have been playoff teams that didn't depend on elite goaltending to win games?

I'm not sure what point your arguing now? That they're not a playoff team, so they won't make it?

I figured you had teams in mind when you said that.  I don't doubt there have been teams make the playoffs only due to elite goaltending, but what relevance is that?  I'm not saying the Leafs are the first team in history to potentially make the playoffs this way.

I'm saying they don't play like a playoff team.  Bernier is not the team, overall they don't play like one.  They win games ONLY if Bernier plays elite and they get a high SH% - they simply don't shoot enough and get outshot by so much that it cannot be any other way.  They're last in shots against and bottom 6 in shots for.

No team in the league gets dominated possession wise like the Leafs either, which goes hand in hand with the shots.

I think you're arguing that if they make the playoffs they are, by definition, a 'playoff' team.  But I'm arguing that, whether they make the playoffs or not, the team overall does not play like a playoff team - not by the definition of being in the playoffs, but by their actual play.  I don't think they have played all season like a top 16 team in the league, and I think that's reflected in the fact they are only 21st in games that don't go to a shootout - which is more reflective of a team's ability than a shootout is.

 

[princedpw]

It is certainly the case that many Stanley Cup winners have relied on good goaltending to get there.  What people are worried about is the extent of the problem. 

The Leafs currently have the 5th-worst goals against average in the league over the entire season.  And sure, Reimer's had a few off games, but the vast, vast majority of that time the Leafs have had stellar goaltending (how soon do we forget Reimer's stellar shutout relief appearance in LA?).  The last couple of outings aren't skewing the Leafs season-long GAA numbers by very much.

So the problem is that even with top goaltending, the Leafs still give up more goals than just about anyone else --- they certainly give up more than other playoff bound teams.  Look at the other teams around them in GAA.  There isn't a playoff-bound team in sight!

I guess I just don't expect much in the playoffs from a bottom-5 defensive team, especially when there's no room for improvement via a hot goaltender ... because that's essentially what we've had the entire season.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

It is certainly the case that many Stanley Cup winners have relied on good goaltending to get there.  What people are worried about is the extent of the problem. 

Yeah, elite teams use great goaltending to separate themselves from the pack (ex: Boston Bruins) rather than to scratch and claw their way into the post-season.

 

[Redleaf]

We are NOT a playoff team kids....

No with Reimer in net, I agree. On the other hand, The team plays way more like one with Bernier between the pipes.

No they don't, they simply have received elite goaltending to bail them out.  With Bernier in net they've still been getting outshot by a ton all season long, he's just played like one of the top goalies in the league.

Playoff teams are bailed out quite often by elite goaltending. It really wouldn't be anything new.

Which teams?  If those teams need elite goaltending to have a chance to make the playoffs like the Leafs, then the same criticisms apply to them.  But I doubt any playoff team in the league faces the issue to the degree that the Leafs do considering they are on pace to give up the most shots in history.

You honestly don't believe there have been playoff teams that didn't depend on elite goaltending to win games?

I'm not sure what point your arguing now? That they're not a playoff team, so they won't make it?

I figured you had teams in mind when you said that.  I don't doubt there have been teams make the playoffs only due to elite goaltending, but what relevance is that?  I'm not saying the Leafs are the first team in history to potentially make the playoffs this way.

I'm saying they don't play like a playoff team.  Bernier is not the team, overall they don't play like one.  They win games ONLY if Bernier plays elite and they get a high SH% - they simply don't shoot enough and get outshot by so much that it cannot be any other way.  They're last in shots against and bottom 6 in shots for.

No team in the league gets dominated possession wise like the Leafs either, which goes hand in hand with the shots.

I think you're arguing that if they make the playoffs they are, by definition, a 'playoff' team.  But I'm arguing that, whether they make the playoffs or not, the team overall does not play like a playoff team - not by the definition of being in the playoffs, but by their actual play.  I don't think they have played all season like a top 16 team in the league, and I think that's reflected in the fact they are only 21st in games that don't go to a shootout - which is more reflective of a team's ability than a shootout is.

So your argument isn't really anything new. You're just adding 'playoff team' to everything you haven't liked about the regular season version. Which is fine, but more of a guess than anything else. I mean, not counting game seven last spring, this team did seem to rise to the occasion come playoff time. I'm not 'expecting' them to do this again if they make it, but I'm not dismissing the possibility that they could either.

 

[Zee]

It's really a shame how many great players Carlyle has run out of town. Reimer, grabovski, Clarke MacArthur, plus others. He is doing more damage than a bad gm would.

Clarke MacArthur was run out of buffalo and atlanta before he was run out of TO.  I think when your one your 4th team you have to look at yourself as part of the reason.

he's nearly a point per game player with Ottawa and he's a +8. Shall we compare that to Clarkson? Rabid fans like you are the reason why Toronto has not won the cup since 67. Don't get me started on grabovski either. He is having a decent year in Washington.

Scrolling through this thread, and came across this gem.  "Rabid fans like you are the reason why Toronto has not won the cup since 67".
RIGHT.  Like the fans have any effect on what the team does on or off the ice.  Wake up.

 

[Kin]

I guess I just don't expect much in the playoffs from a bottom-5 defensive team, especially when there's no room for improvement via a hot goaltender ... because that's essentially what we've had the entire season.

You've certainly mad a convincing case that the Leafs aren't an elite team or one that anyone should expect to go deep in the playoffs. Problem is I could have made that case before the season began.

 

[Sanecow]

He's an excellent AHL goalie,

That's a step up from Reimer right now.

Yeah, no it's not.

Yeah, well, turns out that actually it is.