Horachek's impact on the team

[cw]

Really?

Taking a jeweler's loupe to my comment might reveal I said "book" and not "comments to the media from a coach whose job was in jeopardy" but, heck, that seems as on target as most of your responses.

He's far from the only coach or sports person to say stuff like "motivation comes from within" when their job was not in jeopardy. It's not some brand new concept nobody's ever heard of - you're in the minority there I think. This business about one needing to cite it in a "book" ...  lol

When a player doesn't have the drive to compete as Phil and his line have demonstrated through continuous poor effort, a coach trying to get them going is like pushing on a rope.

 

[cw]

And no, contrary to another straw man you're attempting, Phil is not the only guy with that problem on this team. I'd say the rest of his line is suspect as is Lupul (who i've posted about before).

Most people here would say it's even more widespread than that. Aside from a few exceptions, Polak, Booth, Kadri(who still should not be rewarded) most people have attributed that attitude to the team as a whole which is why a lot of people are going to ascribe that to something environmental as opposed to individual deficiencies.

Exactly this. Something is not right in that dressingroom. It includes Kessel. But it also includes Phaneuf(the 'leader'), Bozak, Lupul, JvR, etc;

I'm not one feeling the lack of effort is really widespread. I'm sure there's widespread dissatisfaction with losing, etc. 

Robidas, Bernier, Panik, Reimer & Holland are others who Horachek has praised. He's also praised new additions Brewer and Sill.

Phaneuf, Bernier and Reimer have been critical of the team's effort - on side with their coach.

The Kessel line, Kadri and Lupul are the non fringe Leafs whose ice time has fallen under Horachek. Initially, the Kessel line & Kadri got more than Carlyle had been giving them. I think Kadri's ice time fell more for disciplinary reasons - not effort.

The rest largely saw their ice time rise or stay the same.

The four guys with the worst body language, bad results and drop in ice time due to poor effort are Kessel, JvR, Bozak and Lupul. They're the ones who appear to be in Horachek's doghouse.

 

[TML fan]

I gotta agree with Nik on this one. Why the top line hasn't been broken up is beyond me. Maybe he actually did set different lines but because he's such a lame duck the team just ignored him.

 

[Chris]

Top line should have been broken up back in January or early February. Now they're just playing out the string and does it really matter...that said, I'd be inclined to take the "top 4" (Kessel,  Bozak, JVR, Lupul), put them each on a different line, and just roll all the lines equally. Or at least, play the current 4 lines equally. Give guys like Carrick, Sill, Kozun equal minutes and see if they can do anything with it.

 

[cw]

I gotta agree with Nik on this one. Why the top line hasn't been broken up is beyond me. Maybe he actually did set different lines but because he's such a lame duck the team just ignored him.

This is who Kessel has played with at even strength the last 10 games.
link
39.69% EV 42 BOZAK,TYLER - 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 21 VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES
21.09% EV 42 BOZAK,TYLER - 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 19 LUPUL,JOFFREY
16.9% EV 42 BOZAK,TYLER - 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 18 PANIK,RICHARD
7.29% EV 42 BOZAK,TYLER - 81 KESSEL,PHIL
4.19% EV 42 BOZAK,TYLER - 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 15 LINDSTROM,JOAKIM
1.24% EV 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 23 SMITH,TREVOR - 21 VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES
1.09% EV 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 47 KOMAROV,LEO - 23 SMITH,TREVOR
0.93% EV 43 KADRI,NAZEM - 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 21 VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES
0.93% EV 42 BOZAK,TYLER - 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 67 KOZUN,BRANDON
0.78% EV 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 18 PANIK,RICHARD - 23 SMITH,TREVOR
0.62% EV 42 BOZAK,TYLER - 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 22 SILL,ZACH
0.62% EV 24 HOLLAND,PETER - 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 21 VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES
0.47% EV 42 BOZAK,TYLER - 43 KADRI,NAZEM - 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 21 VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES
0.47% EV 42 BOZAK,TYLER - 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 47 KOMAROV,LEO - 21 VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES
0.47% EV 20 BOOTH,DAVID - 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 22 SILL,ZACH
0.31% EV 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 67 KOZUN,BRANDON - 22 SILL,ZACH
0.31% EV 43 KADRI,NAZEM - 81 KESSEL,PHIL
0.31% EV 42 BOZAK,TYLER - 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 47 KOMAROV,LEO
0.31% EV 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 19 LUPUL,JOFFREY
0.31% EV 43 KADRI,NAZEM - 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 19 LUPUL,JOFFREY
0.31% EV 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 47 KOMAROV,LEO
0.31% EV 53 CARRICK,SAM - 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 21 VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES
0.31% EV 24 HOLLAND,PETER - 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 18 PANIK,RICHARD
0.16% EV 43 KADRI,NAZEM - 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 18 PANIK,RICHARD
0.16% EV 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 22 SILL,ZACH - 21 VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES
0.16% EV 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 47 KOMAROV,LEO - 19 LUPUL,JOFFREY
0.16% EV 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 23 SMITH,TREVOR
0.16% EV 81 KESSEL,PHIL - 47 KOMAROV,LEO - 21 VAN RIEMSDYK,JAMES

That's not exactly sitting on you hands rolling the same line, is it? I looked at others like Crosby, Stamkos & Ovechkin and they seemed to be with their main line +10% or more

And for a hunk of those games, Kadri (suspensions) and Holland (injured) were out - such that no one was in the press box. So Horachek's options were more limited.

If Kessel's line is packing it in, why would you want to bring the other lines down by infecting them? For example, they tried Panik replacing JVR and then switched them back allegedly because the prior line suffered more.

I'm a little fuzzy on this being a crystal clear crime against Leafs Nation humanity. Some of the stuff the coach tried definitely made sense to me.

 

[TML fan]

Look, the three of them are out there together again.

 

[Chris]

I see two very interesting items in that list:
1) the one constant (or nearly constant)...Bozak-Kessel.
2) apparently Kessel and Booth are allergic to each other.

 

[cw]

I see two very interesting items in that list:
1) the one constant (or nearly constant)...Bozak-Kessel.

For that block of 10 games, Kadri was in the doghouse and suspended for half of them. Holland was hurt for the last 4 before tonight. They were only both available early in March for 2 or 3 games.

So that's part of the problem in this block of 10 games

2) apparently Kessel and Booth are allergic to each other.

I thought about that with Kessel and Holland that Nik was suggesting. The problem with Booth and Kessel together to me is they're fairly similar. Booth has shown more hustle and willingness to battle of late but
- neither are great physical players who battle for the puck
- both are right wingers who often score off the rush/on the move
- Booth in particular is not a great passer, he's more of a finisher like Kessel

So I can see why trying Booth might not have been at the top of their list.

With Holland, you're adding a center who has size but isn't gritty either. Booth-Holland-Kessel might be the softest line in the NHL - you just know you're not going to get hit hard by them. Bozak isn't exactly a physical beast either so I don't think they give up much physically trying Holland in place of Bozak with Kessel. But I'd agree that Booth probably is too redundant and they'd be better with a more physical forward - which they tried with Panik & Sill - maybe Komarov (who they've looked at before).

Lupul did ok there before but I think the thrill is gone for him in Toronto.

 

[cw]

I think what would really tie this up is if we compared salaries from the 1960s and 1970s with those in the 1930s.

if we look at 1932, 1972 and 2012, we'd have 40 year spans separating them

In 1972 the minimum NHL salary was 15,000 dollars a year. The median salary was 25,000 dollars.

I didn't check the median number but it looks close enough for our purposes. I believe the average for 1972 was $31,000. In 2012, the average NHL salary was $2.4 mil, the median $1.7 mil.

I couldn't find a similar number for the 1930s. We know the salary cap in mid 1920s was around $35,000 and doubled in the 1930s to between $65,000-70,000. I've read the average 1920s salary was $900. Since the salary cap doubled, let's double the 1920s average salary to derive $1,800 average salary for 1930s. Of specific salaries I've seen for that period, it's ok as a rough estimate. Let's say the median is 25/31 (1972 ratio) of $1,800 - which is $1,452/yr for 1932 (estimate)

$1,452 1932 median in 1972 dollars is $4,087
http://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?amount=300&year=1960

$25,000 is 1972 median in 1972 dollars

$1,712,000 2012 median in 1972 dollars is $311,952.19

The 1972 median is 6.11 times the 1932 median

The 2012 median is 12.48 times the 1972 median

But the 1970s had lifted players salaries with the formation of the NHLPA in '67, NHL expansion in '67 and the startup of the WHA in '71.

Similar numbers for the 1960s, the last decade of original six teams, are more eyebrow raising as I said:
1962 median is only 3.38 times 1932 median
2012 median is 22.59 times 1962 median

The formation of the NHLPA in '67, NHL expansion in '67 and the startup of the WHA in '71 along with things like Curt Flood free agency lawsuit of 1970, bigger rinks, bigger TV deals, improved merchandising, etc launched the rapid growth of NHL salaries.

 

[Chris]

For that block of 10 games, Kadri was in the doghouse and suspended for half of them. Holland was hurt for the last 4 before tonight. They were only both available early in March for 2 or 3 games.

So that's part of the problem in this block of 10 games

Yeah, but I bet if you looked at the breakdown for any 10 game period, Bozak-Kessel would be the dominant pairing. They were hardly ever separated (and when they were, it didn't last long). That's part of the reason I'd be in favor of separating them now - since it's highly unlikely both of them will be back next year, they should start getting used to playing with others. Though, the time for this kind of experimentation has probably already passed.

I thought about that with Kessel and Holland that Nik was suggesting. The problem with Booth and Kessel together to me is they're fairly similar. Booth has shown more hustle and willingness to battle of late but
- neither are great physical players who battle for the puck
- both are right wingers who often score off the rush/on the move
- Booth in particular is not a great passer, he's more of a finisher like Kessel

So I can see why trying Booth might not have been at the top of their list.

With Holland, you're adding a center who has size but isn't gritty either. Booth-Holland-Kessel might be the softest line in the NHL - you just know you're not going to get hit hard by them. Bozak isn't exactly a physical beast either so I don't think they give up much physically trying Holland in place of Bozak with Kessel. But I'd agree that Booth probably is too redundant and they'd be better with a more physical forward - which they tried with Panik & Sill - maybe Komarov (who they've looked at before).

Lupul did ok there before but I think the thrill is gone for him in Toronto.

I think Bozak-Kessel-JVR has been perhaps the softest line in the league over the past couple of months. JVR seems to be physical only in theory (except for standing in front of the net). Hard to imagine Holland-Booth-Kessel being less so. I've actually though Booth has been pretty strong in the corners over the past month or two. Not in the sense of smashing players into the boards, but very good at cycling and protecting the puck. Again, something JVR should be decent at but hasn't been. Holland I think would be the defensive conscience. Not saying he's a great defensive player but he seems to make a reasonable effort.

Before the deadline I had commented somewhere that I thought Santorelli and Kessel could work well together but I don't know if that was ever tried. Oh well. Tough as this has been to watch, it actually has me hopeful for the future for the first time in a long while.

 

[cw]

For that block of 10 games, Kadri was in the doghouse and suspended for half of them. Holland was hurt for the last 4 before tonight. They were only both available early in March for 2 or 3 games.

So that's part of the problem in this block of 10 games

Yeah, but I bet if you looked at the breakdown for any 10 game period, Bozak-Kessel would be the dominant pairing. They were hardly ever separated (and when they were, it didn't last long). That's part of the reason I'd be in favor of separating them now - since it's highly unlikely both of them will be back next year, they should start getting used to playing with others. Though, the time for this kind of experimentation has probably already passed.

That's kind of the sad part about this. They should be able to put some use together for the games that remain but this season has been so ugly, it's hard to evaluate the players remaining.

The one thing I would have done before now, is to give Booth some PP ice time - maybe Kessel's to give him a boot in the butt.

I thought about that with Kessel and Holland that Nik was suggesting. The problem with Booth and Kessel together to me is they're fairly similar. Booth has shown more hustle and willingness to battle of late but
- neither are great physical players who battle for the puck
- both are right wingers who often score off the rush/on the move
- Booth in particular is not a great passer, he's more of a finisher like Kessel

So I can see why trying Booth might not have been at the top of their list.

With Holland, you're adding a center who has size but isn't gritty either. Booth-Holland-Kessel might be the softest line in the NHL - you just know you're not going to get hit hard by them. Bozak isn't exactly a physical beast either so I don't think they give up much physically trying Holland in place of Bozak with Kessel. But I'd agree that Booth probably is too redundant and they'd be better with a more physical forward - which they tried with Panik & Sill - maybe Komarov (who they've looked at before).

Lupul did ok there before but I think the thrill is gone for him in Toronto.

I think Bozak-Kessel-JVR has been perhaps the softest line in the league over the past couple of months. JVR seems to be physical only in theory (except for standing in front of the net). Hard to imagine Holland-Booth-Kessel being less so. I've actually though Booth has been pretty strong in the corners over the past month or two. Not in the sense of smashing players into the boards, but very good at cycling and protecting the puck. Again, something JVR should be decent at but hasn't been. Holland I think would be the defensive conscience. Not saying he's a great defensive player but he seems to make a reasonable effort.

Before the deadline I had commented somewhere that I thought Santorelli and Kessel could work well together but I don't know if that was ever tried. Oh well. Tough as this has been to watch, it actually has me hopeful for the future for the first time in a long while.

You might be right about the JVR-Bozak-Kessel line being softer. The one thing I'd give JvR is he'll go to the net. I think Phil needs a guy like that on his line. Lupul did it some when he arrived in Toronto- not so much now.

I guess the other thing is if Holland plays with Phil and Phil won't make an effort, Holland is better where he is. I think one of the announcers commented to that effect when Panik was tried on Kessel's line in place of JvR - they were messing up two lines so they put Panik back with his old line.

With crap like that happening, it's hard for me to blindly nail Horachek.

 

[cw]

The four guys with the worst body language, bad results and drop in ice time due to poor effort are Kessel, JvR, Bozak and Lupul. They're the ones who appear to be in Horachek's doghouse.

In his post game comments, Horachek excused Lupul's season some with the three injuries.

 

[Al14]

The four guys with the worst body language, bad results and drop in ice time due to poor effort are Kessel, JvR, Bozak and Lupul. They're the ones who appear to be in Horachek's doghouse.

In his post game comments, Horachek excused Lupul's season some with the three injuries.

Lupul's injuries are no excuse!  He has been able to produce coming back from injury in the past! 

 

[cw]

The four guys with the worst body language, bad results and drop in ice time due to poor effort are Kessel, JvR, Bozak and Lupul. They're the ones who appear to be in Horachek's doghouse.

In his post game comments, Horachek excused Lupul's season some with the three injuries.

Lupul's injuries are no excuse!  He has been able to produce coming back from injury in the past! 

Around 1:50 into it
http://video.mapleleafs.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=788887

Horachek cited his knee injury as the key one that has hampered his "breakaway speed". He sounds optimistic that Lupul will eventually fully recover - he just pointed out that he feels it compromised him this year.

 

[L K]

The four guys with the worst body language, bad results and drop in ice time due to poor effort are Kessel, JvR, Bozak and Lupul. They're the ones who appear to be in Horachek's doghouse.

In his post game comments, Horachek excused Lupul's season some with the three injuries.

Lupul's injuries are no excuse!  He has been able to produce coming back from injury in the past! 

Around 1:50 into it
http://video.mapleleafs.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=788887

Horachek cited his knee injury as the key one that has hampered his "breakaway speed". He sounds optimistic that Lupul will eventually fully recover - he just pointed out that he feels it compromised him this year.

Much like any other injured players.  Maybe it's time to shut him down then.  Although how much of an excuse are injuries to an injury prone player.  I mean I'll give Komarov a bit of a pass for dealing with a concussion.  He was on a relatively unsustainable hot streak but he went from effective to ice cold after missing time.

Injuries and Lupul are synonymous.  He has talent but moving forward I have no expectations for any sort of production.

 

[Coco-puffs]

The four guys with the worst body language, bad results and drop in ice time due to poor effort are Kessel, JvR, Bozak and Lupul. They're the ones who appear to be in Horachek's doghouse.

In his post game comments, Horachek excused Lupul's season some with the three injuries.

Lupul's injuries are no excuse!  He has been able to produce coming back from injury in the past! 

Around 1:50 into it
http://video.mapleleafs.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=788887

Horachek cited his knee injury as the key one that has hampered his "breakaway speed". He sounds optimistic that Lupul will eventually fully recover - he just pointed out that he feels it compromised him this year.

Much like any other injured players.  Maybe it's time to shut him down then.  Although how much of an excuse are injuries to an injury prone player.  I mean I'll give Komarov a bit of a pass for dealing with a concussion.  He was on a relatively unsustainable hot streak but he went from effective to ice cold after missing time.

Injuries and Lupul are synonymous.  He has talent but moving forward I have no expectations for any sort of production.

Shutting him down would require calling someone up from the Marlies. Management probably doesn't want to do that as they are fighting for their playoff lives and the approach seems to be to not call anyone up until they are ready. As long as Lupul can play through his current ailment without making it worse it's the best approach (for their prospects and the tank... Not necessarily to his trade value though)

 

[Kin]

Robidas, Bernier, Panik, Reimer & Holland are others who Horachek has praised. He's also praised new additions Brewer and Sill.

Unfortunately, the issue is "players who appear to be giving it their all" and not "players Horacheck has praised". You are desperately in the minority, and the GDT's will confirm this, if you think that none of those players efforts have been questioned by people watching the games. It's a widespread problem and, at this point, that points directly at the staff and management of the club.

 

[Kin]

He's far from the only coach or sports person to say stuff like "motivation comes from within" when their job was not in jeopardy. It's not some brand new concept nobody's ever heard of - you're in the minority there I think. This business about one needing to cite it in a "book" ...  lol

See, the fundamental difference between coaches who say what amounts to "don't blame me, blame the bums I'm coaching" and the coaches who write books is that the coaches who end up writing books tend to be, you know, successful.

When a player doesn't have the drive to compete as Phil and his line have demonstrated through continuous poor effort, a coach trying to get them going is like pushing on a rope.

Which, if true, is the best argument not to have the team pushing on a rope for 20 minutes a night.

 

[cw]

Robidas, Bernier, Panik, Reimer & Holland are others who Horachek has praised. He's also praised new additions Brewer and Sill.

Unfortunately, the issue is "players who appear to be giving it their all" and not "players Horacheck has praised". You are desperately in the minority, and the GDT's will confirm this, if you think that none of those players efforts have been questioned by people watching the games. It's a widespread problem and, at this point, that points directly at the staff and management of the club.

I disagree.

There are at least a few things going on:
1. Guys like Kessel not making an effort
2. Guys making an effort but not playing well / not getting good individual results
3. Guys making an effort and getting ok individual results (that obviously hasn't resulted in the team winning much)

With his words and ice time, I think the coach has shared his opinions on who those players are and where they fall.

Now you or other fans may not agree with his opinions. But he is the coach on the front lines with these players. And I don't see a guy going through what he's being put through patting a bunch of guys on the back who have quit on him over a long period of time. It defies human nature, etc.

I don't think the guy is the second coming of Vince Lombardi and should be back but I think he's got enough on the ball to  figure out who is on board making an effort for him.

I'm sure you do not agree so let's agree to disagree.

 

[Kin]

With his words and ice time, I think the coach has shared his opinions on who those players are and where they fall.

Yup. With the small group of guys you think are mailing it in getting the most ice time on the team on a consistent basis.