How have the Leafs made out this off-season?

[moon111]

Well there is a saying - Rome was not built in a day and what I see with Burke is a direction, yeah it is slower that we all hoped for, but the heading is clear. I - for one - am happy for that.

I like to think I'm a patient guy. I am, after all, a Toronto sports fan. If say, Burke's teams have been getting better steadily, I'd be ok with that. The problem is that the results haven't improved. For all his moves and bluster, he's been throwing out 80 point teams year after year. And frankly, I don't see how the current team will be any better.

I think Fanatic touched on something important too; for the people who have soured on Burke, it's because i) he has so far shown more style than substance and ii) he is now coming off as condescending to what I happen to believe is one of the smartest and best informed fanbases around. We know Rielly isn't the best player in the draft. So why tell us he was? This isn't a one-time thing either, it's indicative of Burke's penchant for spewing nonsense and expecting us to accept it. So, we have a GM whose on-ice success is non-existent and to make matters worse he seems to believe we're a bunch of ill-informed yokels who haven't followed hockey religiously for our entire lives.

I'll totally agree with fans being upset by Burke's style.  However of any argument I've witnessed about Burke's substance, there's never been a solid answer to what he should do better.  Usually I hear people complain he's not doing something that would of been a JFJ-type move.  Instead, he's done what fans wanted JFJ to do.  Wouldn't even surprise me if Burke has known this would be the outcome.  Does he have to try and please his bosses, the fans, and the media?  Sure thing.  Find it shocking people are surprised a lawyer could blow hot smoke.
As for the draft, there's no way I'd risk my #1 on someone who might bolt to the KHL.  My choice would of been one of the defensemen, with none of them having a huge upper hand over the others.

 

[Bullfrog]

..... ii) he is now coming off as condescending to what I happen to believe is one of the smartest and best informed fanbases around. We know Rielly isn't the best player in the draft. So why tell us he was?

I think he deserves criticism, but I think we also need to carefully listen to what he's actually said. I've read through a number of his quotations, and he's said they would have picked him number 1 if they had the chance. He's never actually stated that he thought Rielly was the best player in the draft. Perhaps I'm being picky here, but I think it's fair to criticize based on actual words.

 

[#1PilarFan]

I'll totally agree with fans being upset by Burke's style.  However of any argument I've witnessed about Burke's substance, there's never been a solid answer to what he should do better.

Anyone who isn't Burke isn't responsible for solving his problems. We're all under-qualified to be the GM of the Leafs. But just like if we see a heart surgeon using a hammer, we have enough common sense to point out that there's probably a better way. 

Usually I hear people complain he's not doing something that would of been a JFJ-type move.  Instead, he's done what fans wanted JFJ to do.  Wouldn't even surprise me if Burke has known this would be the outcome.  Does he have to try and please his bosses, the fans, and the media?  Sure thing.  Find it shocking people are surprised a lawyer could blow hot smoke.

You're acting like he's doing a full rebuild, but really he tried his hardest to retool the roster and it failed. If he had intended to do a full rebuild, he wouldn't have traded for Phil Kessel. He even said himself he thought that, with Kessel, the Leafs would make the playoffs. He's attempted to build on the fly, and the bet draft picks available to him during his tenure were traded away. This is not the traditional, stockpiling of talent that fans so often clamour for. Which doesn't matter to me, because I've never been sold on that approach. However, the approach that Burke has taken has failed to produce any tangible results or even any real cause to be optimistic. 

As for the draft, there's no way I'd risk my #1 on someone who might bolt to the KHL.  My choice would of been one of the defensemen, with none of them having a huge upper hand over the others.

I think that says more about you than it does about anything else, to be honest. You cannot be afraid of drafting Russians because every now and then one of them wants to go home. I mean, if Yakupov wasn't the consensus 1st overall pick, I could see where you're coming from, but he was and I can't. 

 

[#1PilarFan]

I think he deserves criticism, but I think we also need to carefully listen to what he's actually said. I've read through a number of his quotations, and he's said they would have picked him number 1 if they had the chance. He's never actually stated that he thought Rielly was the best player in the draft. Perhaps I'm being picky here, but I think it's fair to criticize based on actual words.

The problem with that is that if Burke didn't think that Rielly was the best player in the draft, why would he suggest he would pick him 1st overall? I mean, wt kind of GM picks a player that he doesn't think is as good over other players who he acknowledges are better?

 

[Bullfrog]

My apologies as I didn't mean to reopen this discussion, but maybe he's picking positionally? or based on other factors beyond raw talent?

 

[#1PilarFan]

My apologies as I didn't mean to reopen this discussion, but maybe he's picking positionally? or based on other factors beyond raw talent?

Maybe, but I don't think it's a stretch to say he was probably exaggerating to make Rielly feel good about himself and maybe to feel really valued.

 

[Kin]

I think that says more about you than it does about anything else, to be honest. You cannot be afraid of drafting Russians because every now and then one of them wants to go home. I mean, if Yakupov wasn't the consensus 1st overall pick, I could see where you're coming from, but he was and I can't.

And, I mean, is it even an every now and then thing? Outside of Radulov, who's bolted for the KHL that wasn't an aging UFA or a marginal prospect? Saying you wouldn't risk a pick drafting a Russian because he might pull a Radulov is like saying you wouldn't pick a Canadian because he might pull a Lindros.

 

[ZBBM]

Well there is a saying - Rome was not built in a day and what I see with Burke is a direction, yeah it is slower that we all hoped for, but the heading is clear. I - for one - am happy for that.

I like to think I'm a patient guy. I am, after all, a Toronto sports fan. If say, Burke's teams have been getting better steadily, I'd be ok with that. The problem is that the results haven't improved. For all his moves and bluster, he's been throwing out 80 point teams year after year. And frankly, I don't see how the current team will be any better.

I think Fanatic touched on something important too; for the people who have soured on Burke, it's because i) he has so far shown more style than substance and ii) he is now coming off as condescending to what I happen to believe is one of the smartest and best informed fanbases around. We know Rielly isn't the best player in the draft. So why tell us he was? This isn't a one-time thing either, it's indicative of Burke's penchant for spewing nonsense and expecting us to accept it. So, we have a GM whose on-ice success is non-existent and to make matters worse he seems to believe we're a bunch of ill-informed yokels who haven't followed hockey religiously for our entire lives.

Well said.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Have you seen the comparison between the team before he took over and the team now? It's one thing I've actually been impressed with.

But I think what PF is saying holds quite a bit of merit. Yeah, you can look at the 07-08 team as being terrible and that's true but I think it's just as fair to look at it as a blank canvas. There wasn't anything in the way of big contracts aside from Kubina/Kabs/Blake.

Whoever took over that team was going to get to build whatever the heck they wanted. They had the resources and nothing in the way of a serious albatross.

A blank canvas, yes....but the resource division was rather empty. Other than money, they didn't have much.

I do get what Pilar is saying. And as I've stated before, I am at the end of my rope with Burke. That being said, I was more excited watching the young team play last year than I've been in 10 years watching this team play hockey. It was done with drive and vigour.

One can only hope that it eventually translates into playoff hockey. I personally believe it will. I am not 100% sure that Burke will be the man in charge when that happens, and I'm sure if he's not, many will give the new GM all the credit....But remember, Ferguson robbed this team of a future and made them the oldest team(one of anyways) in the league. Under Burke this team has gotten younger, faster, and they are finally building towards something.

As for the argument that Burke is an arrogant a$$clown that says some mighty stupid stuff. I don't think you'll get an argument from anyone that he doesn't.

Listen, I'm neither a Burke supporter or a Burke hater....but anyone that can honestly say that this team is not heading in a better direction than they were under Ferguson is blind.

 

[Bullfrog]

My apologies as I didn't mean to reopen this discussion, but maybe he's picking positionally? or based on other factors beyond raw talent?

Maybe, but I don't think it's a stretch to say he was probably exaggerating to make Rielly feel good about himself and maybe to feel really valued.

i agree. But based on what I've read since the draft, it doesn't sound like it was much of an exaggeration. Rielly seems to be extremely talented.

 

[Tigger]

We know Rielly isn't the best player in the draft.

I don't think we do know that, fwiw, there are arguments to be made but we won't know who the best player in that draft is for a while yet.

I don't really see anything wrong with Burke claiming he'd take him first overall either, it hardly matters.

 

[Kin]

A blank canvas, yes....but the resource division was rather empty. Other than money, they didn't have much.

I don't think anyone is labouring under a mistaken idea of what the Leafs had at the time. The most common criticism Burke gets, around here anyway, is that he didn't do a very good job of realizing just how bare the cupboard was and that he made some really poor early decisions regarding how quickly the team could be built back up.

So that he didn't start out with much isn't really defending him against that charge.

Listen, I'm neither a Burke supporter or a Burke hater....but anyone that can honestly say that this team is not heading in a better direction than they were under Ferguson is blind.

Well the two problems there are A) that's not saying much and B) I've never, on this board or in conversation with people I know or from callers on sports radio, ever heard anyone saying that they'd prefer JFJ. So it strikes me as kind of pointless to stake that position out.

That said, I think it's an entirely fair position to take to say that until Burke delivers a team better than the JFJ teams that he shouldn't get the credit in advance.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

Have you seen the comparison between the team before he took over and the team now? It's one thing I've actually been impressed with.

But I think what PF is saying holds quite a bit of merit. Yeah, you can look at the 07-08 team as being terrible and that's true but I think it's just as fair to look at it as a blank canvas. There wasn't anything in the way of big contracts aside from Kubina/Kabs/Blake.

Whoever took over that team was going to get to build whatever the heck they wanted. They had the resources and nothing in the way of a serious albatross.

A blank canvas, yes....but the resource division was rather empty. Other than money, they didn't have much.

I do get what Pilar is saying. And as I've stated before, I am at the end of my rope with Burke. That being said, I was more excited watching the young team play last year than I've been in 10 years watching this team play hockey. It was done with drive and vigour.

One can only hope that it eventually translates into playoff hockey. I personally believe it will. I am not 100% sure that Burke will be the man in charge when that happens, and I'm sure if he's not, many will give the new GM all the credit....But remember, Ferguson robbed this team of a future and made them the oldest team(one of anyways) in the league. Under Burke this team has gotten younger, faster, and they are finally building towards something.

As for the argument that Burke is an arrogant a$$clown that says some mighty stupid stuff. I don't think you'll get an argument from anyone that he doesn't.

Listen, I'm neither a Burke supporter or a Burke hater....but anyone that can honestly say that this team is not heading in a better direction than they were under Ferguson is blind.

Personally I was more excited 2001-2004 when we were a playoff team that had solid goaltending, a #1 center and was adding players for what were assured playoff appearances.

Different strokes for different folks I guess...

 

[jdh1]

I think Burke thought that he was going to do a lot better in free agency...like getting the Sedin twins.
That plus other 1st line players...he underestimated the difficulty in aquiring these type of players.

I think that's why he appears to have egg on his face right now...plus it doesn't help announcing to the hockey world how quick he's going to do things like a rebuild...he's eating a little humble pie right now.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

A blank canvas, yes....but the resource division was rather empty. Other than money, they didn't have much.

I don't think anyone is labouring under a mistaken idea of what the Leafs had at the time. The most common criticism Burke gets, around here anyway, is that he didn't do a very good job of realizing just how bare the cupboard was and that he made some really poor early decisions regarding how quickly the team could be built back up.

So that he didn't start out with much isn't really defending him against that charge.

Listen, I'm neither a Burke supporter or a Burke hater....but anyone that can honestly say that this team is not heading in a better direction than they were under Ferguson is blind.

Well the two problems there are A) that's not saying much and B) I've never, on this board or in conversation with people I know or from callers on sports radio, ever heard anyone saying that they'd prefer JFJ. So it strikes me as kind of pointless to stake that position out.

That said, I think it's an entirely fair position to take to say that until Burke delivers a team better than the JFJ teams that he shouldn't get the credit in advance.

I'll be the first to agree that Burke came in and tried to save the world in one stroke of the brush, hence the Kessel deal and the ridiculous contracts of Komisarek and such.

But I will disagree with you in that he deserves no credit. What I see now, and obviously I'm one of the only ones, is a team that has the stepping stones to become successful in the future. Like I said, it probably won't be under Burke that the team realizes the successes...But Burke will have certainly had a hand in helping them achieve that goal.

I would whole heartedly agree if Burke had continued down the same path of trading draft picks and young talent for a quick fix, but after realizing his mistake following the Kessel trade(yes, I know he'll never admit it), he has rebuilt the cupboard quite handsomely. Yes there are some pieces still missing. But this discussion started with a poster who felt that a #1 centreman and a #1 goalie just grow on trees. Well, you can't reach those two assets without using the entire cupboard full of prospects you've built up to get them. Which, in turn, was my point in the 'NHL '96' post.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Have you seen the comparison between the team before he took over and the team now? It's one thing I've actually been impressed with.

But I think what PF is saying holds quite a bit of merit. Yeah, you can look at the 07-08 team as being terrible and that's true but I think it's just as fair to look at it as a blank canvas. There wasn't anything in the way of big contracts aside from Kubina/Kabs/Blake.

Whoever took over that team was going to get to build whatever the heck they wanted. They had the resources and nothing in the way of a serious albatross.

A blank canvas, yes....but the resource division was rather empty. Other than money, they didn't have much.

I do get what Pilar is saying. And as I've stated before, I am at the end of my rope with Burke. That being said, I was more excited watching the young team play last year than I've been in 10 years watching this team play hockey. It was done with drive and vigour.

One can only hope that it eventually translates into playoff hockey. I personally believe it will. I am not 100% sure that Burke will be the man in charge when that happens, and I'm sure if he's not, many will give the new GM all the credit....But remember, Ferguson robbed this team of a future and made them the oldest team(one of anyways) in the league. Under Burke this team has gotten younger, faster, and they are finally building towards something.

As for the argument that Burke is an arrogant a$$clown that says some mighty stupid stuff. I don't think you'll get an argument from anyone that he doesn't.

Listen, I'm neither a Burke supporter or a Burke hater....but anyone that can honestly say that this team is not heading in a better direction than they were under Ferguson is blind.

Personally I was more excited 2001-2004 when we were a playoff team that had solid goaltending, a #1 center and was adding players for what were assured playoff appearances.

Different strokes for different folks I guess...

Yes, perhaps the 10 year comment was an exaggeration. I take it back.

I was more excited watching this team this past season then I have been since the lockout.

 

[Tigger]

Just to touch on Kessel, I didn't want the Leafs to trade for him well before the trade happened but it's worth noting that even that mistake was for a young top 6 scorer, which is not a bad result.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Just to touch on Kessel, I didn't want the Leafs to trade for him well before the trade happened but it's worth noting that even that mistake was for a young top 6 scorer, which is not a bad result.

Exactly...and that's a top 6 scorer with a supposed downside(attitude problem) at the time.

Could you imagine the cost for a bonafide #1 center or a #1 tender?

 

[bustaheims]

Just to touch on Kessel, I didn't want the Leafs to trade for him well before the trade happened but it's worth noting that even that mistake was for a young top 6 scorer, which is not a bad result.

I've always felt the mistake with the Kessel deal was the timing of it rather than the trade itself. It was too early in the process to make that kind of move.

 

[Kin]

But I will disagree with you in that he deserves no credit.

I didn't say that. What I said is that he doesn't deserve the credit for putting together a better team than JFJ until he actually  does. This isn't Enron, you can't book next year's profits now.

But this discussion started with a poster who felt that a #1 centreman and a #1 goalie just grow on trees.

I don't think that's a fair characterization of what anyone's said. Like the Mamet speech was supposed to convey, the fact that Burke's task is hard doesn't mean he hasn't failed at it. That, as Don Draper said though, is what the money is for.

I don't want to get into what anyone particularly sees for the future because the person who says they see clear skies and smooth sailing has an opinion as valid as the guy who sees big waves and bolts of lightning. Personally, I'm just trying to deal in the cold facts of the matter.