How have the Leafs made out this off-season?

[Kin]

That was JFJ's post '04 lockout folly. For some reason, he thought he had a roster with potential that he could top up with the likes of Lindros, Allison, Gill, Blake, Domi and whoever else, and somehow convert a non-playoff team into a contender.

I don't know how fair that is. For starters, I think it's a little forgivable that JFJ looked at the team after the lockout and thought they had some potential. Sundin was still around. McCabe and Kaberle were at their peak. There was a pretty good collection of younger players too with Antro, Steen, Wellwood and Colaiacovo. The problem with that team wasn't Allison or Lindros, it was Belfour and while it might be fair to say that JFJ should have known Belfour was finished I think it's safe to say that's an error he had in common with a lot of people on this board. It was an attempt to make one last push with Sundin and I'm more or less ok with that.

And even if you want to say that JFJ did a bad job of identifying guys to add, the reality is that signings like Allison and Lindros don't really hurt a team. They're short-term and can be easily corrected and that's the worst case scenario.  A signing like Gill, I think, is a pretty good one for a young team. He's a good, steadying veteran presence and as the Leafs found out you can cash out on a guy like him and get bonus draft picks.

Even with Jason Blake, who I think we can all agree was JFJ's worst signing, you're still not giving up anything. And, yeah, cap space is important but I think we can agree that the real impact Blake had on the team and it's future paled in comparison to the bad trades Ferguson made.

A bad trade, as we've seen with JFJ and Burke, can really hurt a team if you misidentify what your team has/needs and don't set a good price on it. FA signings, even at their worst, seem to be pretty manageable. Looking at the Leafs right now I definitely would have preferred Burke signed more FA's and made fewer trades.

 

[Kin]

At least with Van Riemsdyk we have a legit first line for once. Lupul JVR and Kessel is as decent as most other teams top lines in the league. Im sure Tyler Bozak is a nice kid but uh... go back to the 3rd/4th line please.

That's a huge assumption to make considering vanRiemsdyk hasn't played centre in the NHL. Obviously that would be the ideal outcome but JVR being the team's #1 centre is a long, long way from a sure thing to say nothing of how effective it would end up being.

That's one of the reasons I'm not sure about the trade. A ton of its value seems contingent on JVR playing centre. Otherwise, if he's a winger, then the team is actually pretty deep there. Kessel and Lupul right now seem like the top guys and then there's Kulemin/Mac/Frattin and, probably, Kadri at some point. Likewise, most of the team's best forward prospects are wingers.

That's why I'm not sure I buy it when people talk about this trade being about two teams dealing relatively equal players to address needs. I honestly didn't watch last year's team and say they needed a ton of help on the wing or that they were set on defense.

 

[Mack674]

At least with Van Riemsdyk we have a legit first line for once. Lupul JVR and Kessel is as decent as most other teams top lines in the league. Im sure Tyler Bozak is a nice kid but uh... go back to the 3rd/4th line please.

That's a huge assumption to make considering vanRiemsdyk hasn't played centre in the NHL. Obviously that would be the ideal outcome but JVR being the team's #1 centre is a long, long way from a sure thing to say nothing of how effective it would end up being.

That's one of the reasons I'm not sure about the trade. A ton of its value seems contingent on JVR playing centre. Otherwise, if he's a winger, then the team is actually pretty deep there. Kessel and Lupul right now seem like the top guys and then there's Kulemin/Mac/Frattin and, probably, Kadri at some point. Likewise, most of the team's best forward prospects are wingers.

That's why I'm not sure I buy it when people talk about this trade being about two teams dealing relatively equal players to address needs. I honestly didn't watch last year's team and say they needed a ton of help on the wing or that they were set on defense.

I'm more excited about jvrs ability to park in front of the net and have the size to impose his will on people than anything. Here's hoping he can play centre. The leafs management seem to at least believe he can do it or that its at least worth a shot. Theyre better informed to make these cas than I am so until he turns out to he a disaster or a success thsgs up in the air.

I would contend its the best option, for the time being anyway. I've sure seen enough of Tyler Bozak to know he's not a top line NHL player.

What I really hope is that leafs brass don't force the issue if jvr stinks at centre and just let it go on and on. If hes struggling I hope they try kadri or colbourne at least. It can't really hurt since theres no proven winning combination yet so might as well experiment until this team figures out how to win.

Then again, watch it turn out that without bozak, lupul stinks for some reason. Who knows what will happen.

I really 'something' happens though. The outlook now is starting to become who do we try and acquire for the 2013-2014 season...

 

[hockeyfan1]

JVR is someone that isn't afraid to stand in front of the net and take punishment. He isn't a small dude either. That combination is something the Leafs have been lacking for a few years and if utilized properly he could really make a big difference in a number of ways.

Overall I think JVR will contribute more to the overall success of the team than Schenn did.

Alot of question marks again this year but I for one think it's not outside the realm of possibility that the Leafs could make the playoffs this year, perhaps even 6th or better.

Should Reimer have a good year (as long as we keep Gionta away from him), Kulemin return to form, Kadri make the team and have an impact, Colbourne, Gardiner imrpove over last year etc... any one or two of those scenarios could have an impact.

At least with Van Riemsdyk we have a legit first line for once. Lupul JVR and Kessel is as decent as most other teams top lines in the league. Im sure Tyler Bozak is a nice kid but uh... go back to the 3rd/4th line please.

I like your optimism. 

 

[skrackle]

That was JFJ's post '04 lockout folly. For some reason, he thought he had a roster with potential that he could top up with the likes of Lindros, Allison, Gill, Blake, Domi and whoever else, and somehow convert a non-playoff team into a contender.

I don't know how fair that is. For starters, I think it's a little forgivable that JFJ looked at the team after the lockout and thought they had some potential. Sundin was still around. McCabe and Kaberle were at their peak. There was a pretty good collection of younger players too with Antro, Steen, Wellwood and Colaiacovo. The problem with that team wasn't Allison or Lindros, it was Belfour and while it might be fair to say that JFJ should have known Belfour was finished I think it's safe to say that's an error he had in common with a lot of people on this board. It was an attempt to make one last push with Sundin and I'm more or less ok with that.

And even if you want to say that JFJ did a bad job of identifying guys to add, the reality is that signings like Allison and Lindros don't really hurt a team. They're short-term and can be easily corrected and that's the worst case scenario.  A signing like Gill, I think, is a pretty good one for a young team. He's a good, steadying veteran presence and as the Leafs found out you can cash out on a guy like him and get bonus draft picks.

Even with Jason Blake, who I think we can all agree was JFJ's worst signing, you're still not giving up anything. And, yeah, cap space is important but I think we can agree that the real impact Blake had on the team and it's future paled in comparison to the bad trades Ferguson made.

A bad trade, as we've seen with JFJ and Burke, can really hurt a team if you misidentify what your team has/needs and don't set a good price on it. FA signings, even at their worst, seem to be pretty manageable. Looking at the Leafs right now I definitely would have preferred Burke signed more FA's and made fewer trades.

I might give JFJ a mulligan for his 1st post lockout year, based on the relative success of the Quinn-built team he inherited.

It wasn't unreasonable for JFJ to think he might have a team to work with, but if he did think UFAs were the way to go, he was slow out of the gate in '05 with free agent signings and he did not take advantage of the buy-out amnesty.

I'm not disagreeing with you on the point that it was JFJ's trades that sunk the Leafs. If it was just a matter of giving UFAs a shot as placeholders/veteran presence while young talent was being acquired and developed, that's fine. I'd grant Burke a similar mulligan for the Connolly signing.

I just get a bit fed up with the idea that big splash UFA signings are the answer to the Leafs problems.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I guess the question I would have for you is:

Was there a #1 centre available?

Was there a #1 goalie available?

What would you have given up to get both of them?

Well, A) that's three questions and B) rthey seem to be sort of beside the point(although the obvious answer to the goalie question is yes).

I apologize Nik, I will be sure to never have a spelling mistake or grammar mistake...though, I'm pretty sure rthey isn't a word....but my grammar mistake is noted.

As for the goaltender being available...I know of one. I also know that there hasn't been one single team to improve their goaltending this offseason. The only goalie that was available was Vokoun and he was traded and signed on June 4th. The only goalie that apparently is available is Luongo and with the lack of a move being made by any team, including Florida/Toronto/Chicago means that Gillis is asking for the moon. I assumed most smart minds around here would associate that with Luongo not 'really' being available at this point.

But leaving aside who isn't or isn't available, largely because nobody can speak to that authoritatively without being an NHL GM, it's not really relevant if we're talking about a team's direction. The criticism is that the Leafs have holes at those two crucial positions and seem unable to address them. Is that abated by saying that acquiring them isn't easy? Or that those players haven't simply fallen into the team's lap? I think what it highlights is that the strategy of trying to acquire those players via trade or free agency is a lousy one because it depends so much on the decisions of people who have no vested interest in the Maple Leafs(to say nothing of the self-imposed handicap Burke put on the team when looking for FA's).

And how is that different than what I've stated? If adding a goalie or 1st line center requires giving up the farm, than you don't do it. Once again, I didn't figure I had to write that down. I'll be sure to from now on. As for Burke's self imposed handicap on UFA's....Well sir, can you please point me in the direction of the 1st Line Center UFA or Starting Goalie(in this offseason as the thread title states 'How have the Leafs made out this off-season?') that said self imposed handicap has effected? There's been a big dman signed and a left winger signed...But I don't recall a top center signed to a long contract. Well, other than Staal who was a trade and sign before the draft which included the 8th overall pick.

As for Schenn adding value.....Yes, he did add value. He added the value of being able to acquire JVR.

Ok, so doesn't that mean that both players are of roughly equal value? So there's no clear net positive? I mean, you can dismissively call Schenn a 5/6 defenseman just like I can call JVR a third line winger, but they were traded straight up for each other.

No, what it means is the Leafs saw Schenn as a number 5/6 dman and felt the team was better with JVR. And yes, Philly who was severely suffering on d(even more now with the other injuries and such felt they needed to get a dman.

And if you read my next line in the post you quoted, you would see that I feel a #5 or #6 dman is not without value. They are just easier to move than a top 4 dman. But alas, that line was ignored because it didn't support your POV.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I like the JVR trade. He has some upside & brings some size to the forward ranks.

Everything else is underwhelming. The team still has major holes that werent addressed. Is the team going in a positive direction? No.

How is adding a player that you like not going in a positive direction when noone of value was lost?

Because the team still has the same holes & shows an inability to address them. Do you know the next time there will be a no.1 center in Leafs line-up? How about a quality goalie? I dont....neither does anyone else.

With that in mind how can I honestly think they are headed in the right direction?

I guess the question I would have for you is:

Was there a #1 centre available?

Was there a #1 goalie available?

What would you have given up to get both of them?



As for Schenn adding value.....Yes, he did add value. He added the value of being able to acquire JVR.

5/6 dmen are not without value. They are just easier to move than a top 4 dman.

And just how many years now have we needed and been promised a #1 centre and improved goal tending (last summer was the only one in recent memory that the Leafs did not say better goal tending was needed -- and look how well that turned out)????

My estimation is in accord with that of Mike 1 and Nik3.

Mike1 is bang on in his assessment as to the flawed strategy of this latest edition of Leaf mismanagement.

Since Lockout 1, there have been very few decent UFAs -- by which I mean any UFA that could transform a roster --- and of those who did come available, we have netted zero.

It is clear that talent and cap space are the two most valuable assets. We  misspend and we misspend to the cap - every year too!

Yet we consistently miss the playoffs.

Can anyone seriously contend that this is good management?

Can anyone seriously question that this is very bad management?

I mean, really.

Draft. Draft Draft. That's all.

Sure, you have got to draft well (duh!) but throwing away draft picks sure has not proven to work going as far back as Walt McKechnie.

No playoffs next spring I fear.

Then we change GMs and then another coach and the cycle starts again.

Damn.

The title of the thread is "How have the Leafs faired this off-season?"...Not how have the Leafs faired for the past 7 years.

 

[Kin]

As for the goaltender being available...I know of one. I also know that there hasn't been one single team to improve their goaltending this offseason. The only goalie that was available was Vokoun and he was traded and signed on June 4th. The only goalie that apparently is available is Luongo and with the lack of a move being made by any team, including Florida/Toronto/Chicago means that Gillis is asking for the moon. I assumed most smart minds around here would associate that with Luongo not 'really' being available at this point.

Well, like you said, Vokoun was available. That's one. And he was available during the Leafs' off-season so I really have no idea what hair you're trying to split there.

As for Luongo, I'm not overly inclined to get into what you think "really available" means, but it's clear that he's being shopped around the league and is therefore available so that's two.

And how is that different than what I've stated?

You questioned why someone would say they didn't think the Leafs were moving in a positive direction. What I tried to say there is that regardless of who is or isn't available failing to address those problems can be seen as a lack of progress.

As for Burke's self imposed handicap on UFA's....Well sir, can you please point me in the direction of the 1st Line Center UFA or Starting Goalie(in this offseason as the thread title states 'How have the Leafs made out this off-season?') that said self imposed handicap has effected?

That was a digression into a criticism of the general strategy Burke has employed to address the aforementioned weaknesses. The reason it's relevant to the topic at hand(although, for future reference, off-topic digressions are usually ok around these parts) is that the supposed lack of available players highlights why a strategy that relies on other teams' decisions to make #1 centres/goalies cheaply available isn't likely to yield results. So even if players of those types weren't available this off-season, and again neither of us know who was or wasn't available in a trade, then it's another example of the strategy failing to bear fruit.

No, what it means is the Leafs saw Schenn as a number 5/6 dman and felt the team was better with JVR.

Well, the second part of that is clearly true because of the trade but I don't think the trade is necessarily evidence of how the Leafs saw Schenn in any other respect other than they'd rather have JVR. You asked why someone might like the JVR trade but not like what the team has done in a larger context because, in your own words, "no one of value was given up". Saying you like the JVR trade, though, doesn't imply that you think Schenn has no value.

And if you read my next line in the post you quoted, you would see that I feel a #5 or #6 dman is not without value. They are just easier to move than a top 4 dman. But alas, that line was ignored because it didn't support your POV.

Well, no. It was ignored because I felt it sort of skipped over what I think most people would agree is the main issue of the trade. That is whatever JVR or Schenn are now(a third line winger, a bottom pairing defenseman) is secondary in consideration to what they'll be eventually. A 5/6 defenseman isn't necessarily easier to trade than a top 4 guy(and, by that, I'm assuming you mean they're more replaceable if traded) if, say, they're 22 years old and a guy with a lot of potential. Neither guy's value is adequately expressed simply by where they were on their respective team's depth charts last season.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

Don't want to quote the whole post because it's very long.

"Neither guy's value is adequately expressed simply by where they were on their respective team's depth charts last season."

Not sure I agree with this. Schenn was, at seasons end, the 5th-6th Dman on one of the worst defensive teams in the league. JVR was a 1st liner at times and a 3rd liner at times on one of the better offenses in the league.

Schenn fell off throughout the season due to poor play. JVR due to injury (he had something like 14 pts in his first 18 games).

While I agree the jury is still out, I think the Leafs got the player who's value was higher at the time of the trade.

 

[Kin]

While I agree the jury is still out, I think the Leafs got the player who's value was higher at the time of the trade.

Well, without going into your argument too much, I think you're missing my point a bit. Even if what you say here is true then I don't think it fundamentally changes my point. When two young players with untapped potential get dealt for each other how they're perceived at the time of the trade is ultimately secondary to what teams think they'll have a few years down the road.

 

[Mack674]

Don't want to quote the whole post because it's very long.

"Neither guy's value is adequately expressed simply by where they were on their respective team's depth charts last season."

Not sure I agree with this. Schenn was, at seasons end, the 5th-6th Dman on one of the worst defensive teams in the league. JVR was a 1st liner at times and a 3rd liner at times on one of the better offenses in the league.

Schenn fell off throughout the season due to poor play. JVR due to injury (he had something like 14 pts in his first 18 games).

While I agree the jury is still out, I think the Leafs got the player who's value was higher at the time of the trade.

Bottom line is, the trade needed to happen. Regardless of what Schenn becomes in the future, theres no guarantee he was ever going to be awesome here. It looked like he was going in the opposite direction in fact.

I agree with what you said anyway. He was bottom pairing on one of the worst teams in the league vs a guy thats close to the top on one of the more offensively gifted teams in the league.

Regardless of where they sat in the depth chart, player for player, I make this deal every time if I'm Brian Burke. I think it will work out really well for everyone to be honest. Schenn just wasn't delivering anymore here and he may benefit very well under a new system, new city, playing with his brother etc. He definitely has the tools to be a good player so good luck to him. On phillys end, JVR was kind of expendable because of all the talent they have up front and in my opinion Philadelphia undervalued him and probobly could have gotten more for him than just Luke Schenn.

For once I feel like it's Toronto that got the good end of the stick on a trade and its the other teams in the league going "Damn, thats all?! We coulda got that guy!".

Call me discriminating, but the only thing I don't like about JVR is that I wish he was Canadian. Then again, I wish all good players in the NHL were Canadian and that we had a monopoly on being a talented hockey player, but what can you do...

 

[Kin]

Bottom line is, the trade needed to happen. Regardless of what Schenn becomes in the future, theres no guarantee he was ever going to be awesome here.

I don't know if that's quite the bottom line because there are no guarantees about JVR either.

I agree with what you said anyway. He was bottom pairing on one of the worst teams in the league vs a guy thats close to the top on one of the more offensively gifted teams in the league.

The problem I have there is that, to me anyways, is that that reads like the perfect situation where JVR is going to be overvalued(as playing with a group of very talented offensive players tends to be a good thing for forwards) and Schenn will be undervalued(because a young defenseman's mistakes will be magnified if the rest of the team sucks defensively).

JVR was 8th on the Flyers in terms of ATOI and 5th in terms of wingers(I'm guessing. NHL lists Briere and Giroux as right wingers). That's third line with heavy PP minutes.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

While I agree the jury is still out, I think the Leafs got the player who's value was higher at the time of the trade.

Well, without going into your argument too much, I think you're missing my point a bit. Even if what you say here is true then I don't think it fundamentally changes my point. When two young players with untapped potential get dealt for each other how they're perceived at the time of the trade is ultimately secondary to what teams think they'll have a few years down the road.

Absolutely correct.

But obviously Schenn was seen to have less value to the Leafs than JVR and the opposite is true in Philly. This is why I had implied that Schenn was a player of lesser value(to the Leafs) being moved for a player of greater value(to the Leafs). Should of explained it more I guess.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

But I guess the point Nik is making is correct. We have no real idea of the value of the trade until(at the least) we can see them progress with their respective clubs. So we have 13 months to debate it as it'll be that long before we see them in training camp.

 

[Corn Flake]

But I guess the point Nik is making is correct. We have no real idea of the value of the trade until(at the least) we can see them progress with their respective clubs. So we have 13 months to debate it as it'll be that long before we see them in training camp.

True. That goes for pretty much any trade... need to give it time... unless Darryl Sutter is the GM on one end of it, then you can call it right away. 

 

[caver]

I'm picking fly crap out of pepper here but Marty Brodeur also made it to free agency this summer. He said publicly that he seriously considered taking the Toronto offer (I wish) before resigning with the Devils. Burke did take a run at a veteran goalie this off-season.

 

[Tigger]

I'm picking fly crap out of pepper here but Marty Brodeur also made it to free agency this summer. He said publicly that he seriously considered taking the Toronto offer (I wish) before resigning with the Devils. Burke did take a run at a veteran goalie this off-season.

Flake called that one, in spite of having to kiss his feet for a while, I would have liked it.

 

[Kin]

But I guess the point Nik is making is correct. We have no real idea of the value of the trade until(at the least) we can see them progress with their respective clubs. So we have 13 months to debate it as it'll be that long before we see them in training camp.

Just to clarify a bit, my point isn't so much that you can't really assess a trade until it plays out on the ice(that's true to some extent though) because I do think it's fair to look at a trade when it happens and try to determine whether or not it made sense. I mean sometimes it just doesn't. Trading the best goalie prospect in the world for Boston's third stringer, for instance, was dumb the moment JFJ did it and I said as much.

My issue here is that I really don't think people are doing either. I think people are sort of talking themselves into JVR and not really addressing his issues. If you look at the thread here about the trade you get a pretty different picture of JVR(although not, admittedly, of Schenn who I fully admit I'm out of step with the majority on).

 

[Tigger]

But I guess the point Nik is making is correct. We have no real idea of the value of the trade until(at the least) we can see them progress with their respective clubs. So we have 13 months to debate it as it'll be that long before we see them in training camp.

We have some idea of the value of the trade now, it's not written in Sanskrit.

 

[Corn Flake]

I'm picking fly crap out of pepper here but Marty Brodeur also made it to free agency this summer. He said publicly that he seriously considered taking the Toronto offer (I wish) before resigning with the Devils. Burke did take a run at a veteran goalie this off-season.

Flake called that one, in spite of having to kiss his feet for a while, I would have liked it.

:-*

Don't worry I spray them with Air Wick every morning.