Internal Competition

[Deebo]

I really don't see how that applies to guys like Boyce, Bozak, Dupuis, Orr and so on.

For Orr specifically here, he's is one of the top guys in his role in the NHL. The merits of the enforcer can be debated, but the guy in charge here likes to have one on his team, so a healthy Orr is all but guaranteed a roster spot.

 

[Kin]

The thread began with a very general statement that Burke made regarding roster spots. If that's the premise for anger at Burke for not having spots open then there's evidence to refute that. I was also speaking moreso to ZZBM's seemingly angry post about it. Burke has stated that if a kid is better suited to play over a vet then they would go with the kid. Therefore I think words like "Ludicrous" to describe the situation, and referring to "Burke said this" (i.e. only one roster spot open) is very premature and probably off the mark. To go on to talk about the "country club atmosphere" is, therefore, also premature.

Well, if we are going to be very specific about what Burke said than the article you quote doesn't change things by leaps and bounds. Burke in the line you single out, Burke really just says that it could be one or two, which still isn't a huge chunk of the line-up.

And I don't think that's a fair quote of country club atmosphere there. ZBBM didn't say the team has a country club atmosphere, he said that it's an atmosphere of guys being gifted spots they didn't necessarily earn that's similar to the pre-Burke years that he says was overhyped as a country club atmosphere.

In regards to the previous camp it would depend on what you're talking about. Is it in regards to a specific player or number of players? I don't recall off the top of my head who played well in the preseason and who didn't. I would argue that a good pre-season doesn't mean a player deserves a roster spot necessarily. I think you mentioned Kessel not having to come out all guns ablazing.

Like I said, that's fair in applying it to guys like Kessel. What I was referring to was the make-up of their fringe players under Burke which, to my mind, has both hasn't really reflected what I've seen in camp and, more importantly, hasn't left the Leafs with a very good bottom 6.

 

[Kin]

I understand where that perception comes from, but, the truth is, as fans, we really only get to see a small part of what actually goes on as part of training camp - the pre-season games. For things like scrimmages, practices, drills, intersquad games, etc, we generally have to rely on 3rd parties for whatever information we can glean, and, as Burke and Wilson have said in the past, the things we don't get to see hold a lot of weight in their decision making process.

That's fair but it holds a lot less weight when the team, as I allude to in another post, hasn't actually had a very good bottom 6, when they've admitted that decisions are being made as much for contract reasons as hockey reasons and when guys called up mid-season have clearly outplayed guys who made the team out of camp.

 

[Kin]

For Orr specifically here, he's is one of the top guys in his role in the NHL. The merits of the enforcer can be debated, but the guy in charge here likes to have one on his team, so a healthy Orr is all but guaranteed a roster spot.

One of the problems with the enforcer role, and one of the reasons it's really never made sense, is that I'm not sure there is a great way to gauge how good a guy actually is in it.

According to Hockeyfights.com, admittedly not hard science, Orr was 7-5-1 last year in thirteen fights. That's pre-severe concussion. So will Orr be a top-flight enforcer this year, whatever the heck that means? I don't know. It seems like the kind of thing that, in just about every other role in sports, you'd go into camp to find out.

 

[Deebo]

For Orr specifically here, he's is one of the top guys in his role in the NHL. The merits of the enforcer can be debated, but the guy in charge here likes to have one on his team, so a healthy Orr is all but guaranteed a roster spot.

One of the problems with the enforcer role, and one of the reasons it's really never made sense, is that I'm not sure there is a great way to gauge how good a guy actually is in it.

According to Hockeyfights.com, admittedly not hard science, Orr was 7-5-1 last year in thirteen fights. That's pre-severe concussion. So will Orr be a top-flight enforcer this year, whatever the heck that means? I don't know. It seems like the kind of thing that, in just about every other role in sports, you'd go into camp to find out.

I think his hockeyfights.com poll results is pretty much irrelivant.

Orr will fight anyone, can skate, isn't really a liability, doesn't take alot of dumb penalties, will stick up for his teammates etc. he's everything an enforcer should be and has performed done well at it here for the last 2 years.

When you have a guy who has been one of the best at his role for the past few years you don't go into camp to find out if he'll get the spot to start the year, he gets it. Personally I don't care if we have an enforcer on the team or not, but if we are going to, I think Orr should be the guy to get the job to start the year regardless of what he does in camp.

 

[Kin]

I think his hockeyfights.com poll results is pretty much irrelivant.

Sorry, just to clarify, I don't really disagree with this except for the fact that it sort of re-enforces what I'd have said if someone asked me about how Orr did in the role last year which is to say that he won some fights and lost some(although his losses have proven more memorable than his losses).

Orr will fight anyone, can skate, isn't really a liability, doesn't take alot of dumb penalties, will stick up for his teammates etc. he's everything an enforcer should be and has performed done well at it here for the last 2 years.

The issue there is that I'd say those are, for the most part, things that are pretty common to all enforcers. Especially any guy who classifies as a heavyweight.

That's sort of what makes the job such a weird one. I'm not sure there's consensus on what goes into making a guy a good enforcer. Boogard, for instance, is a guy who couldn't skate, was a hockey playing liability and yet was probably the #1 ranked enforcer in the league in polls/salary.

So is it winning your fights? Being willing to fight? Being a competent player in addition to winning your fights? I don't really know. I think that's really one of the reasons it's actually sort of a useless role when there's never going to be real consensus there. Either way, it seems like the kind of thing where you'd need to watch a team play 82 games to have a real good sense of how their enforcer qualifies under those criteria.

That's my question with Orr. Watching him last year, I don't know there were a lot of moments where I came away saying "Wow, what a great enforcer"(aside from maybe tackling Scott clemmensen) so after a serious concussion I would be very curious to see what he's still capable of.

 

[slapshot]

To be perfectly honest, this sounds like it came from a politician. Zero in on one specific thing without looking at other things that he's said and aim for the jugular. Burke is a mouthpiece and will say what's on his mind, but there's broken telephone now and again by looking at select quotations. And some things he says I feel may completely accurate: like the whole pugnacity thing. I think his comments over the past few years would back that up.

To be honest, you're the only one who seems to be all that focused on Burke's quotes here. My statement there, and I assume ZZBM's agreement, is based on what's actually happened in Leafs camps in the last few years where roster spots/positions don't seem overly connected to who plays well in camp.

The thread began with a very general statement that Burke made regarding roster spots. If that's the premise for anger at Burke for not having spots open then there's evidence to refute that. I was also speaking moreso to ZZBM's seemingly angry post about it. Burke has stated that if a kid is better suited to play over a vet then they would go with the kid. Therefore I think words like "Ludicrous" to describe the situation, and referring to "Burke said this" (i.e. only one roster spot open) is very premature and probably off the mark. To go on to talk about the "country club atmosphere" is, therefore, also premature.

In regards to the previous camp it would depend on what you're talking about. Is it in regards to a specific player or number of players? I don't recall off the top of my head who played well in the preseason and who didn't. I would argue that a good pre-season doesn't mean a player deserves a roster spot necessarily. I think you mentioned Kessel not having to come out all guns ablazing. There's quite a lot of variables that would go into a good camp, not just scoring or a good few games, but also whether or not the player can sustain their role against stronger competition, through a full season and so forth.

Moreover, I wouldn't pin it all on Burke. Out of the 50 or so (ballparking) players at camp, I would think that Wilson, would play a strong part in whittling that number down, although I could be wrong.

I think your reasoning is reasonable here. The way I see it, and why Burke said only 1 spot available is that he foresees (barring something totally unexpected):
1. Top two lines are set
2. Reasonable to conclude that Bozak and Armstrong start the season on 3rd line
3. That probably 4-5 low end guys will rotate on the 4th line. (He's not going to take young talent and drop them in there even if they do have a great camp).

That leaves just left wing 3rd line. I just don't see any young guy winning a spot on the top two lines or over Army or Bozak to start the season even if they do have a great camp.

Here's what could play out. Say Kadri, Frattin or Colbourne all look really good in camp and that it's a tough call between them. Kadri likely has first dibs on the left wing job, as he's already played with the Leafs more than the other two, plus Frattin typically places right wing and Colbourne centre. Frattin and Colbourne go down, but could be recalled quickly if say: a) Kadri slips back b) Bozak doesn't bounce back c) someone gets injured.   

I think that's the most plausible scenario. Jobs on the defence will be very interesting, particularly in determining who makes top four.

I think Liles will be paired with Schenn for sure. The tricky one is whether Phanuef is paired with Aulie again or Franson?

Franson has more NHL experience, the Leafs seem very high on him and he's set his sights on top four. Only thing is he's a righthanded shot and Phanuef usually plays right side. Doesn't anyone know if Franson played left side in Nashville? Aulie on the other hand played very well along side Phaneuf and as did Dion when paired with Aulie. Tough call here, likely to be experimented with and decided upon in camp. One will get paired with Gunner most likely. That leaves Komi and Lashoff on the sidelines. I think Komi days are numbered though, even if he does play well. He's pretty one dimensional, but much fetch something in a trade if he returns to form. Lashoff - who played steady on recall last year -- is good insurance.
I think Burke will be able to offload Komi's contract somewhere, especially if he plays well. He ditched more ridiculous contracts as fast as you can say Jason Blake. Should be an interesting camp...

 

[hockeyfan1]

Judging from Burke's comments regarding spots open, I don't think he's expecting a sea of change to happen, only in that, by stating the obvious, he threw in a bit of motivational psychology for the younger guys (prove just who can belong and fit in), and, for the current young roster (show that you still belong, etc., etc.).  Only two roster spots open?  That's pretty intense "internal competition". 

I believe that this is Kadri's moment to shine.  He may have the best 'inside track' of the open spots, not Frattin nor Colborne, for the simple reason that he's played in the NHL and should, by now, showcase himself to be more focused, disciplined, with a change of attitude.  We'll see to that.

 

[Bullfrog]

"Weird" is an understatement.  "Ludicrous" is more like it.  A team that hasn't made the playoffs in years should, by definition, have all kinds of roster spots up for grabs.  Last time I looked, we had exactly zero superstars.  There's not a single person on this team that's good enough to be guaranteed a certain position on a certain line.
...

I think that's a bit of an extreme point of view. Just off the top of my head I'd say that Connolly, Kessel, Kulemin, Grabovski, Schenn, Phaneuf, Reimer, and more are definitely guaranteed certain positions, at least to start the year.

 

[Erndog]

When I look at the top 9, I think Burke is completely accurate.

Lupul-Connolly-Kessel
Kulemin-Grabs-MacArthur
Open-Bozak-Armstrong

There is exactly 1 spot open.  Just like Nik said, a preseason shouldn't trump what we have seen in the past.  These 8 guys can play in those spots without question. If the preseason was the be all and end all than Brandon Bochenski and Nick Foligno would have won the Rocket Richard trophy with 50+ goal seasons then no?  Considering they scored like 8 in the pre-season.

 

[Kin]

When I look at the top 9, I think Burke is completely accurate.

Lupul-Connolly-Kessel
Kulemin-Grabs-MacArthur
Open-Bozak-Armstrong

Two things I'd quibble with there. First, Burke wasn't just referring to the top 9. Secondly, I'm fine with the notion that Bozak has the inside track on the #3 centre job based on the fact that the Leafs don't really have anyone better suited to the role(absent maybe Lombardi) but he's a terrific case of a guy who shouldn't go into camp thinking he's sewn a job up. He was mediocre enough last year in both ends to have to earn that role.

 

[bustaheims]

That's fair but it holds a lot less weight when the team, as I allude to in another post, hasn't actually had a very good bottom 6, when they've admitted that decisions are being made as much for contract reasons as hockey reasons and when guys called up mid-season have clearly outplayed guys who made the team out of camp.

In regards to the guys being called up mid-season outplaying other playings . . . it's hard to say definitively that would have been the same from the beginning of the season. There's a very good chance that a few months in the AHL helped these players to become confident enough/understand the professional game enough/etc to be able to outplay those players, and they may not have been able to do so if they were on the roster starting at game 1. It's a sort of a chicken and egg thing.

 

[Erndog]

When I look at the top 9, I think Burke is completely accurate.

Lupul-Connolly-Kessel
Kulemin-Grabs-MacArthur
Open-Bozak-Armstrong

Two things I'd quibble with there. First, Burke wasn't just referring to the top 9. Secondly, I'm fine with the notion that Bozak has the inside track on the #3 centre job based on the fact that the Leafs don't really have anyone better suited to the role(absent maybe Lombardi) but he's a terrific case of a guy who shouldn't go into camp thinking he's sewn a job up. He was mediocre enough last year in both ends to have to earn that role.

Well there's 8, maybe 9 NHL caliber defencemen so there is internal competition for playing time right there.  Everyone knows this including those 8/9 guys.

There's Reimer and Gustavsson as the 2 goalies.  Perhaps we could have brought in a third to push Gus but then again, what would we do with them (or Gus) afterwards?

So we're talking about the 4th line here.  One which, as me and you have discussed before, see very little difference in 4th liner to 4th liner.  The 3 will be some combination of Boyce, Orr, Brown, Dupuis and maybe Caputi or Zigomanis.  Every GM would agree it's no use having a guy like Kadri, Frattin or Colborne in this spot.  Either way, we're quibbling over a 4th line basically and arguing over whether we should have Dupuis play 8 minutes or Boyce play 8 minutes.  At the end of the day, the difference there is so marginal it's probably not even worth discussing.


Edit:  And yes, I see your point that Bozak should probably come in thinking he has to earn a spot but again, if Bozak plays marginal, and Kadri and Frattin dominate, does Bozak really lose his spot on the roster?  We've seen guys dominate a pre-season before (Foligno, Bochenski, even our own Kadri last year) to know that those 2 weeks are pretty meaningless.

 

[Kin]

So we're talking about the 4th line here.  One which, as me and you have discussed before, see very little difference in 4th liner to 4th liner.  The 3 will be some combination of Boyce, Orr, Brown, Dupuis and maybe Caputi or Zigomanis.  Every GM would agree it's no use having a guy like Kadri, Frattin or Colborne in this spot.  Either way, we're quibbling over a 4th line basically and arguing over whether we should have Dupuis play 8 minutes or Boyce play 8 minutes.  At the end of the day, the difference there is so marginal it's probably not even worth discussing.

I don't know if I'd agree that Caputi is a potential 4th line candidate but Frattin would be wasted there. I think there's value in getting guys NHL time even if there's not much of it and I think there are enough examples of talented prospects getting 4th line minutes that the "every GM" line there probably doesn't hold a ton of weight.

Either way it's less about the particulars than it is about the idea of an open competition and, if we're going to parse what it is Burke said, I don't think it's genuine to shift the context like that.

Edit:  And yes, I see your point that Bozak should probably come in thinking he has to earn a spot but again, if Bozak plays marginal, and Kadri and Frattin dominate, does Bozak really lose his spot on the roster?  We've seen guys dominate a pre-season before (Foligno, Bochenski, even our own Kadri last year) to know that those 2 weeks are pretty meaningless.

I would hope that, if Frattin and Kadri both blow Bozak away in camp that the team would seriously consider going with a third line of Frattin-Kadri-Armstrong with Bozak in the press box to start. Leaving aside the outliers you're talking about, which don't really make the pre-season meaningless any more than Jim Carey or other one year wonders make the regular season meaningless, and basing this decision entirely on the regular season than, based on Bozak's last regular season, he doesn't deserve to have a spot gift-wrapped for him. Especially a new spot that carries a different set of responsibilities with it.

I think we can all agree that Bozak's competition for the third line spot is pretty meagre(assuming Lombardi isn't in camp) so I think expecting him to have to actually beat out that competition in camp isn't really asking too much. If he can't show up to camp and significantly outclass Boyce/Zigomanis/Dupuis than I'd seriously doubt his ability to stay on a NHL roster.

 

[Deebo]

I think entirely too much is made of who makes the team directly out of camp, the competetion for NHL roster spots and ice time isn't over when the puck drops for game 1.

 

[Kin]

In regards to the guys being called up mid-season outplaying other playings . . . it's hard to say definitively that would have been the same from the beginning of the season. There's a very good chance that a few months in the AHL helped these players to become confident enough/understand the professional game enough/etc to be able to outplay those players, and they may not have been able to do so if they were on the roster starting at game 1. It's a sort of a chicken and egg thing.

I'm not sure who you're referring to there specifically but it doesn't really apply, I think, to fringe guys like Boyce and Crabb who had previous professional experience.

 

[Kin]

I think that's a bit of an extreme point of view. Just off the top of my head I'd say that Connolly, Kessel, Kulemin, Grabovski, Schenn, Phaneuf, Reimer, and more are definitely guaranteed certain positions, at least to start the year.

I think it's fair to say that all of the guys you mention are very likely to be either top 6 forwards or top 4 defensemen but I think any of the forwards could end up on a first or second line and any of the defensemen could end up at #1 or #4. That's the sort of thing they need to have an eye on.

 

[bustaheims]

I'm not sure who you're referring to there specifically but it doesn't really apply, I think, to fringe guys like Boyce and Crabb who had previous professional experience.

Who did they really outplay, though? They both joined the team because of injuries and stuck around because other players were injured. Do either of them stick around if Armstrong and Brown were healthy? Probably not. They outplayed Mitchell, who was the 13th forward coming out of camp, and that's about it.

 

[Zee]

What happened to the new philosophy of everyone fighting for their jobs all the time?  I thought before Burke got here the Leafs were accused of having too many guys "comfortable" knowing they had a spot on the team and hence didn't work hard enough to earn that spot?  Seems strange to me he would suddenly say every position but 1 is locked up.

 

[Erndog]

(I didn't know where to put this)

I collect hockey cards and I was discussing with another collector Matt Frattin today (as I noticed he and I will both likely be competing for Matts cards in the future). Anyways, he watched him for 4 years at UND and here's what he said of Matt:

Personally, I think the trouble Matt got into while in college was the best thing that ever happened to him. Prior to that I thought he might have a chance to see some NHL time, he had the size and ability, but it just didn't click all the time. Once he came back from his suspension, he was an animal. I don't know if you have seen the goal he scored in the NCAA's against Yale 2 years ago, but it was a beauty, here is the youtube link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA38q-FkbU0

Things I like about Matt personally are his character and commitment to the team. He could have bolted to the NHL when he got in trouble, but he chose to take the hard road back to his teammates.

Hockey wise he is strong on his skates, didn't ever seem to be afraid to get his nose dirty, and he has a pretty wicked shot when he unleashes it. That brings me to a dislike, his accuracy needs some work, he isn't as bad as the kid in the Mighty Ducks movies, but if he is was more accurate, he would have scored a ton more goals. He isn't afraid to lay someone out, as you saw in that game he played for the Leafs, he will use the body when he needs to and at UND he stuck up for his teammates a lot.

I think he could work on his foot speed a little more, wasn't a problem in the NCAA, but a little more speed in the NHL wouldn't hurt. Defensively he was pretty solid at UND, responsible in his defensive zone and played the PK a lot.

If he continues to put in the work that it takes to be successful in the NHL, I don't see why he couldn't be a top 6 forward for the Leafs, he has all the tools for the NHL. Mind you, I thought Bochenski did too, but he didn't have the defensive side of his game that Frattin does and honestly, Bochenski proved to be a lot lazier as well, didn't seem to want to work at the game to keep in the NHL level, he could have been a consistent 30 goal scorer I believe, kid had some talent

Overall, I think he will be a good NHL'er, he won't be a Toews, but I could see him hitting 30+ goals a year consistently with 40 goal potential, it all relies on how his game translates and if he keeps himself as a top 6 guy. It is just so hard to tell with guys, so many variables for making it in the NHL. I am really excited to see how this coming season unfolds for him. From what I read, it sounds like there is basically one spot open on the team for about 4-5 guys to try to grab, should be good competition as Colborne is a hell of a player as well.